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Old 11-14-2013, 05:46 PM   #61
MTrider16
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Originally Posted by terryckdbf View Post
David, that is about 30 seconds with my bike. I thought the "bung extender" on the post O2 sensor was mainly to prevent the CEL fault when using a free flowing CAT. Isn't the "bung extender" on the primary O2 sensor to fool the ECU into thinking the mixture was "rich" therefore it would lean out for better fuel mileage? Among other things, the O2 signal not being linear makes the resistor and pot idea not an ideal solution.

Thanks

Terry
I'm just making conversation while waiting for Ebrabaek to get done with his testing session.

Any way, I have heard of the bung extension several times, and when it was told to me, it caused an offset in reading due to the resulting temperature of the sensor. I wonder if it would just work with older systems that don't use heated sensors. My understanding is that it causes enough difference in sensor readings to keep a pre/post system from going into fault mode when a catalyst is removed. However this is all just pulled out of my memory which is a pretty faulty data storage system at best.

In this case, I don't think it would work because of the heated O2 sensor. But I haven't tested it.

Looks to me like Roger has put some testing behind his system, so we'll see how it works on Ebrabeak's bike.

David
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Old 11-14-2013, 05:58 PM   #62
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Fair enough, just about getting dark where he is so maybe soon.

Be well.

Terry
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Old 11-14-2013, 06:12 PM   #63
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In my case we are working with industrial NG engines driving pipeline compressors. We've been modifying the older systems with auto style sensor and trying to control off that. Tricky part, is that a NG engine isn't at stoich at the same O2 reading as a gasoline engine. So we are trying to read the mV signal off the sensor. Somewhere between .7 mV and .9 mV is the right setting (which is a pretty wide range.) Any way we have one engine running on one setting and another engine running at a different setting, and nothing is staying consistent. Well there are several things that throw a curve for NG engines. Exhaust temps radically affect the mV readings in that range. So besides ambient conditions changing you also have one engine loaded to the nuts and the next one loafing. Also these exhausts are 8"-12" in diameter and its almost impossible to get these sensors deep enough into the exhaust stream without melting them. Then the fuel composition changes, and you have methane poisoning of the sensor... The list of problems go on. Fortunately Honda et al are seeing a need for O2 sensors for truck NG engines, so some nice wide band units are being developed.

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Old 11-14-2013, 06:14 PM   #64
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?

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Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
Because they are a band aid, which after some time, is nulled. In my book, which off course is ehhhh.... mine, no one's elses......... To get it right, you start fueling correctly, and treating the cause, not the symptoms. The only way to do this, is a fueling app, like the Dynojet app, or the BMW-AF-XIED.
erling i understand its yer thing and u want to do it right but ive had no problems with the band aid fix(ie...the computer hasnt adapated to it as far as i can tell after 3yrs of the ht coonass plug)and yer putting alot of time and money into fixing something bmw should have gotten right to begin with ,those apps r a alot of dinero r they not?
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Old 11-14-2013, 06:21 PM   #65
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You can correct me if I'm wrong Earling.... Earling took the cat off and went with an aftermarket system, so he is in limbo according to the BMW controller. Also he wants to shift the mixture fairly precisely to be able to balance between power, off idle fueling, and fuel economy and vary between the three.

I think you have the easy fix Murph, but its the tuning for perfection part that has these OCD types shelling out the coin.

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Old 11-14-2013, 06:22 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
Go read the Wideband O2 Sensor thread. This is as simple as a Booster Plug.

What we are discussing here is comparisons to other approaches.
i understand the other approaches ideas.........not very good with the whole fi computer designing even after reading that thread and joel's 2nd ary air system deal....if it is as simple as the booster plug cheat then does it cost the same as said cheat?
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Old 11-14-2013, 06:57 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
One more observation. The, should we call it , " lag of power" is most noticeable in the first 3 gears, from 50% to 100% throttle. Before, the bike kept pulling, and the tone was snarlier....snappier.... whatever you wanna call it. Before, it would power wheelie in first, by whacking the throttle. Not close to that now. So I know that some of you are taking this as a gripe with the system, but it is not. I am satisfied with the predicted results as of now. I am posting this as a full review, and when I review an item, weather it is a high dollar av processor, mountain bike, aircraft for that matter.... or a fueling system, it is my duty to report every little thought, and observation that I see. That does not mean anything negative, that just mean that I want to share all the observations that I see. Just wait for my review of the Rekluse......
So back on track.... I found that the difference in what the DJ/AT added in many of the boxes ( see link to other thread on page one) was capped on the ceiling of 25%, that meant if AT were to uphold the target AFR, it actually were in the need of more than 25%..... Or was it.....???? That is the question, as I had very clear indication that it was running rich.... perhaps quite a lot richer that the target 13.2-14.0 it was supposed to be, as indicating by the wideband sensor removed.
Reason that I mention this, is the overall fuel consumption increase ( which was not metered on the computer) was calculated at 15-20%. I came to that conclusion by observing a few fill ups, and calculated the mileage.....compared that to what the computer said. And I saw from 7-9 mpg difference, at a mileage per gallon of around the number 50....... so that is about 14-18% overall.

This is where this will now make sense to you. Look at the values below. You will note that I am at #7, which is only a 4% increase....... A far cry from what the DJ system were demanding, so with that in mind, even at #9, I am still only at less that half of what the DJ/AT were demanding. There is a caveat though. The DJ/AT were sorta running in full time Closed loop, for all practical purposes, whereas the XIED fueling table reffers to the closed loop, part of the fueling, and hopefully adapting these to the closed loop values....... we shall see.

F1--14.7:1 (stock)
F6--14.35 +/-0.15 AFR (2% richer)
F7--14.15 +/-0.15 AFR (4%)
F8--13.8 +/-0.2 AFR (6%)
F9--13.5 +/-0.3 AFR (8%)


I think that tomorrow, I will try the F#8, unless Roger seems like that would be too early......
First I'd like to comment on the 25% fuel additions by the DJ. I'm hoping soon that we will be able to agree that there isn't any reasonable scenario in which the engine could make use of 25% more fuel than the BMSK is set to. What I mean by that is take a fuel cell, 4000 rpm, 50% throttle. That's an Open Loop area of the map. BMW would likely have set an AFR target of 14:1 (an estimate). If you added more than about 15% to that number, power output goes down. There's an argument that a "free flowing" exhaust would allow more air to enter the cylinder but realistically, how much more, 5%?

A speculative but possible explanation for that much added fuel is that the LCFs (Lambda Control Factors) somehow got set to 0.8 because closed loop was disabled when the O2 sensor was disconnected. Since there are many LCFs in the BMSK, know their state would be impossible.

Another plausible explanation is that fresh air found its way to the O2 sensor and the DJ misinterpreted that errant fresh air as a lean condition.

As far as Adaptation goes, there is no "hopefully" about it. The BMSK reports short term trims and the GS-911 can reset short and long term trims. Further, terry and I have measured their effect and observed them. Right now, at setting 7, you're seeing the expected result from a small 4% fuel addition.

To your question, you should try setting 8 soon. But ride it for several days before worrying about the high power part of the band. What is needed is steady riding at many rpms and gears. Give the BMSK time to do its job.

You may eventually see a gain at setting 9, but at setting 10 or above, your probably adding too much fuel.

Hopefully we get a chance to record the LCFs with a GS-911 so we can see what's happening.

Another rider has dual AF-XIEDs on his 1200 GSA. He will take a month of riding to select the best setting, 7, 8, or 9. Then he will ride that setting for a week or two, then do some peak power trials, possibly with the dyno.

Patience, patience, patience.
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Old 11-14-2013, 06:59 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by MTrider16 View Post
Interesting. I would imagine that the computer would run in open loop until the O2 sensor was up to temperature.

I would think the +/- 0.2 AFR would mess with the Catalyst, but is it perceptible to the rider?

David
The +/- 0.2 is not perceptible to the rider. As far as warm up time to closed loop, I think its under a minute on your BMSK bike.
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Old 11-14-2013, 07:14 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by murph76 View Post
i understand the other approaches ideas.........not very good with the whole fi computer designing even after reading that thread and joel's 2nd ary air system deal....if it is as simple as the booster plug cheat then does it cost the same as said cheat?
If it was as simple as the air temp cheat, ECU makers would find a way to lock it out. Come to think of it, they have, Closed Loop Adaptation ...

If the BMSK didn't learn about the air temp sensor cheat, it wouldn't learn about any variation or errors in its many sensors. As a result of that every bike would run very different from one another.

As far as I know, every modern ECU has short and long term fuel trims to correct for wear and sensor errors, along with fuel variation. The most accurate fuel sensor in the motorcycle is the O2 sensor. Because it's there the BMSK can compare the O2 sensor with all the others and work out correction factors. This is very common, but completely invisible to us.

As a result, the BMSK eventually interprets the incorrect lower air temperature as an error, and fixes it. The BMSK doesn't view the world as open loop or closed loop, not that black and white. It sees fueling as estimates from the primary sensors and corrections (Adaptation Values) worked out with the o2 sensor.
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Old 11-14-2013, 07:16 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by murph76 View Post
i understand the other approaches ideas.........not very good with the whole fi computer designing even after reading that thread and joel's 2nd ary air system deal....if it is as simple as the booster plug cheat then does it cost the same as said cheat?
Good questions. I was primarily referring to installation and ease of use with my "as simple as a Booster Plug" comment.

That said, regarding cost, yes the AF-XIED is a bit more expensive.

Booster Plug is $150.

AF-XIED for BMW is $170 + $50 for wiring harness.

Roger can cover the technical details, but it's my understanding the AF-XIED is much more sophisticated hack than the Booster Plug.

jscottyk screwed with this post 11-14-2013 at 07:23 PM
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Old 11-14-2013, 07:30 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by murph76 View Post
erling i understand its yer thing and u want to do it right but ive had no problems with the band aid fix(ie...the computer hasnt adapated to it as far as i can tell after 3yrs of the ht coonass plug)and yer putting alot of time and money into fixing something bmw should have gotten right to begin with ,those apps r a alot of dinero r they not?
Your absolutely right. When price comes into effect, the BP, or HTCA's harnes, is hard to beat, and I suppose you can just reset the adapt values, as the BMSK ehhhhh.... adapts..... As far as what, and how it adapts, and nulls it over time. I have not have any of the two in my bike, but feel comfortable going with roger stated in that regard. I am a very skeptical person, but have leaned that he is a Joel Wiseman, on roids, with regards to Fuel injection. That set aside, I am not sure what the XIED goes for.... two fitty, or so..... and the PC-5/AT combo about five hundred. The latter is a bit much, but I will say that if the XIED works, as I crank a lower AFR, I will say, it is the best twofitty ever spend. Haven't concluded that yet, but am cautiously optimistic. Right on another thing...... BMW should have fixed it, or at the very least let us work with the chip, as the orange crushers are able to do so...... again shame on BMW. Bottom line, if you are happy with the plug you use, then that is really all that matters.......
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Old 11-14-2013, 07:31 PM   #72
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thanxs guys for taking the time to answer stupid's(me) questions ....1 last one though from what im gathering u guys r saying that the ecu learns and therefor corrects against mods such as booster plug so why after 3+ yrs of running one would it not have brought back that abrupt throttle that sucked when i first got this bike?
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Old 11-14-2013, 07:34 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by MTrider16 View Post
You can correct me if I'm wrong Earling.... Earling took the cat off and went with an aftermarket system, so he is in limbo according to the BMW controller. Also he wants to shift the mixture fairly precisely to be able to balance between power, off idle fueling, and fuel economy and vary between the three.

I think you have the easy fix Murph, but its the tuning for perfection part that has these OCD types shelling out the coin.

David
Yeppers...... I was a bit surprised to see, and feel no change as I shifted the table from 13.2-14.0, and really felt nothing. I know I settled on 14.0 below 5000 rpm, and 13.2 above, but when I tested 14.0 across the board ,and there was no change with that shift in AFR of 0.8, that told me that the AT was not precise. In theory...... I will end up at stage#8- or #9, and hover from 13.5-13.8, and be a happy camper, as power have been regained. Those are my expectations, as the BMSK adapts. Time will tell......
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Old 11-14-2013, 07:42 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
First I'd like to comment on the 25% fuel additions by the DJ. I'm hoping soon that we will be able to agree that there isn't any reasonable scenario in which the engine could make use of 25% more fuel than the BMSK is set to. What I mean by that is take a fuel cell, 4000 rpm, 50% throttle. That's an Open Loop area of the map. BMW would likely have set an AFR target of 14:1 (an estimate). If you added more than about 15% to that number, power output goes down. There's an argument that a "free flowing" exhaust would allow more air to enter the cylinder but realistically, how much more, 5%?

A speculative but possible explanation for that much added fuel is that the LCFs (Lambda Control Factors) somehow got set to 0.8 because closed loop was disabled when the O2 sensor was disconnected. Since there are many LCFs in the BMSK, know their state would be impossible.

Another plausible explanation is that fresh air found its way to the O2 sensor and the DJ misinterpreted that errant fresh air as a lean condition.
Bingo..... I am with you on this one.

As far as Adaptation goes, there is no "hopefully" about it. The BMSK reports short term trims and the GS-911 can reset short and long term trims. Further, terry and I have measured their effect and observed them. Right now, at setting 7, you're seeing the expected result from a small 4% fuel addition.

To your question, you should try setting 8 soon. But ride it for several days before worrying about the high power part of the band. What is needed is steady riding at many rpms and gears. Give the BMSK time to do its job.
Will switch tomorrow.....

You may eventually see a gain at setting 9, but at setting 10 or above, your probably adding too much fuel.

Hopefully we get a chance to record the LCFs with a GS-911 so we can see what's happening.

Another rider has dual AF-XIEDs on his 1200 GSA. He will take a month of riding to select the best setting, 7, 8, or 9. Then he will ride that setting for a week or two, then do some peak power trials, possibly with the dyno.

Patience, patience, patience.
.... I actually have lots of patience Roger. I understand what you are saying, and so far the XIED is performing as advertized. I realize that it might take a long time for the overall system to settle down. I don't want you to mistake my posts, as I am in a hurry, because of what I post. I simply do that to try to be as informative to all reading the thread, nothing else.
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Old 11-14-2013, 07:45 PM   #75
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thanxs guys for taking the time to answer stupid's(me) questions ....1 last one though from what im gathering u guys r saying that the ecu learns and therefor corrects against mods such as booster plug so why after 3+ yrs of running one would it not have brought back that abrupt throttle that sucked when i first got this bike?
No worries amigo....... . Why does it not.... I can only speculate, that perhaps over time you have gotten used to it.... Ie, no subtle difference...... dunno.
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