ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > GSpot > Parallel Universe
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-14-2013, 07:53 PM   #76
MTrider16
Ridin' in MT
 
MTrider16's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2006
Location: Eastern Montana
Oddometer: 1,477
I do have a question for Roger. Why does the BMSK learn and adapt to a physical change like a bung spacer or a resistor plug and not a resistor an pot setup like the XIED? All these items effect the electrical signal the sensor sends out.

I think I see why the bung spacer would be found out, the warm up time/sequence wouldn't match the programed sequence. But the other two items... ??

David
__________________
'13 VFR1200D, '13 XVS950, '09 F800GS, 07 CRF250X
Riding roads in Montana - Big Sky Country
www.mtrider16.smugmug.com
Mountains, Moose, and Miles: a Montanan's Alcan Highway Story
Continental Divide and More: the "No Dust" Tour of WY and MT
MTrider16 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2013, 08:14 PM   #77
ebrabaek OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: El Paso,NM
Oddometer: 4,452
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTrider16 View Post
I do have a question for Roger. Why does the BMSK learn and adapt to a physical change like a bung spacer or a resistor plug and not a resistor an pot setup like the XIED? All these items effect the electrical signal the sensor sends out.

I think I see why the bung spacer would be found out, the warm up time/sequence wouldn't match the programed sequence. But the other two items... ??

David
I will take a stab at this, before Roger spills the beans......... O2 bung rules...... temp sensor, not so much. What ever you do with the temp sensor, correct AFR protocol must be observed, thus, regardless of temp manipulation.........O2 rules.......
__________________


Erling
ebrabaek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2013, 05:40 AM   #78
roger 04 rt
Beastly Adventurer
 
roger 04 rt's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Massachusetts
Oddometer: 2,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by murph76 View Post
thanxs guys for taking the time to answer stupid's(me) questions ....1 last one though from what im gathering u guys r saying that the ecu learns and therefor corrects against mods such as booster plug so why after 3+ yrs of running one would it not have brought back that abrupt throttle that sucked when i first got this bike?
The BoosterPlug is a well made product, and pretty accurate too. It does exactly what it claims to do--alter the IAT sensor such that the ECU in your bike determines that the air temperature is 20C lower than the actual air temperature.

When you first install it, the BMSK has made no corrections for it and there is certainly an effect. Then you enter a period where the ECU sees that it doesn't need all the fuel the ECU is calling for and its effect is greatly reduced. If you remove it after using it for a long enough time, your fueling will temporarily suffer because the ECU was used to it being there. So add it, and it's good, take it away, bad.

I don't know why riders report a permanent improvement in fueling, I can't think of a mechanism why that would happen. I'll take a stab at a more thorough explanation in the next post.
roger 04 rt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2013, 06:40 AM   #79
roger 04 rt
Beastly Adventurer
 
roger 04 rt's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Massachusetts
Oddometer: 2,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTrider16 View Post
I do have a question for Roger. Why does the BMSK learn and adapt to a physical change like a bung spacer or a resistor plug and not a resistor an pot setup like the XIED? All these items effect the electrical signal the sensor sends out.

I think I see why the bung spacer would be found out, the warm up time/sequence wouldn't match the programed sequence. But the other two items... ??

David
David, The very simplest explanation, and I don't mean to be flip, is that BMW designed it that way. The Open Loop sensors are meant to get quick fueling answers, with a degree of inaccuracy. The Closed Loop O2 sensor is meant to be highly accurate and for use when the motorcycle is warmed up and in steady-ish riding conditions, and to produce the LOWEST EMISSIONS per our friends at the EPA.

Here is an explanation I made a while back, see if it helps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
A way to think of this is to compare getting the best running engine to getting a room perfectly comfortable. The engine has a lot of sensors that its computer uses to calculate how much fuel it needs to run well.

On the the engine there's an air temperature sensor and another is the exhaust oxygen sensor. To heat a room you could have an outside thermometer and a thermostat. So in the analogy, the thermometer is the air inlet temperature and oxygen sensor is the thermostat.

The thermometer tells you it's cold outside, add some heat, but the thermostat tells the furnace that the room is at the temperature you want or not, and to turn the burner on or off. In the same way, the IAT shifting device like a BoosterPlug can tell the engine computer the air is colder, use more fuel. The problem is that the oxygen sensor is just like the thermostat. It decides how much fuel is enough. So unless you can change the thermostat the room won't get warmer and in the case of the engine the mixture won't get richer.

Now to complicate things, the government has said something like, "the perfect room temperature in the winter is 64 degrees F". For our engines, the EPA has dictated that engines have to burn exactly 1 pound of fuel for every 14.7 lbs of air--no more, no less (with exceptions for a cold start or acceleration). The oxygen sensor makes sure that no matter what any other sensor says, you burn air and fuel in that 14.7 to one ratio. It's like a thermostat that can only be set to 64 degrees.

So the LC-1 or BMW-AF-XIED are thermostats with a dial. You can select the amount of fuel to burn per pound of air, rather than accepting the amount mandated by the government. Turn the thermostat to 70 degrees and stop shivering, turn the XIED to 14.1 or 13.8 and stop surging.

But remember, on the public roads, only 14.7 is legal. Don't touch that dial.

roger 04 rt screwed with this post 11-19-2013 at 06:28 PM
roger 04 rt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2013, 09:12 AM   #80
itsatdm
Beastly Adventurer
 
itsatdm's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2004
Location: Nor Ca.
Oddometer: 4,473
I have one of the spoofers connected to the air temp sensors. It works as advertised and I can't detect any change or degradation of its effect over the 3 years I have had it installed.

My understanding of the narrow band oxygen sensor is that it only measures AF in closed loop. Narrow band means there is a range that it can detect the proper AF ratios. If outside that range it is disregarded by the BMSK (open loop). Unless the BMSK is connected to a thermometer that measures ambient temps, it has no ability to know whether it is real temps or spoofed temps. The temp gauge to measure ambient temps is part of a pod that is an auxiliary package that not all bike have unless it is ordered. So how does this learning curve take place?
__________________
BMW Motorrad USA customer service: "We make superior motorcycles and continue to improve them."
itsatdm is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2013, 11:20 AM   #81
ebrabaek OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: El Paso,NM
Oddometer: 4,452
Went to #8 this morning. I can feel that the bike is one step closer. This early in the stage, I will just share the observations. Bike seemed to pick up a little better throttle response in the areas of riding it was behind. When I whack the throttle in first, it is now a little closer to fly out of control, as it was before. I can hear the tone while cruising being a bit crispier..... towards proper fuel. I only put 20 miles on it, So I will ride more, and share.

Question to my fellow riders who have gs-911's...... Do you have any prints, or other why stored data, that specifies exactly when the BMSK runs in Closed loop, and when in open. No speculation...... or I heard this..... or from a 12GS...... etc..... But hard data from a 8GS......??????
__________________


Erling
ebrabaek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2013, 11:25 AM   #82
roger 04 rt
Beastly Adventurer
 
roger 04 rt's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Massachusetts
Oddometer: 2,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsatdm View Post
I have one of the spoofers connected to the air temp sensors. It works as advertised and I can't detect any change or degradation of its effect over the 3 years I have had it installed.

My understanding of the narrow band oxygen sensor is that it only measures AF in closed loop. Narrow band means there is a range that it can detect the proper AF ratios. If outside that range it is disregarded by the BMSK (open loop). Unless the BMSK is connected to a thermometer that measures ambient temps, it has no ability to know whether it is real temps or spoofed temps. The temp gauge to measure ambient temps is part of a pod that is an auxiliary package that not all bike have unless it is ordered. So how does this learning curve take place?
I understand what you're saying, and no offense intended, but you're looking at it from the wrong angle.

The BMSK doesn't need to know ambient to make a correction. Here's a thumb nail sketch:

The BMSK always makes an Open Loop calculation using all the sensors except the O2 sensor. Let's say that it arrives at an answer that 3 mS injection pulses with meet the needs of 8 degrees of throttle at 3500 RPM and 14.7:1 AFR.

Now if it can, the BMSK also uses its closed loop routine to figure out (by adjusting the fuel a little up and a little down) how much fuel is needed to achieve the O2 sensor's 14.7:1 transition from 800 mV to 100 mV. Let's say it works out that it only needs 2.7 mS of fuel. That is 10% less than the Open Loop calculation.

What it does, after time, is save that correction and hundreds of others. It then uses the correction during Open Loop fueling. That's Adaptation.

So if you lower the air temp, the BMSK will eventually figure out it is over-fueling and make the correction through the Closed Loop Adaptation process. The beauty of this is that it keeps your bike running well even as it ages.
roger 04 rt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2013, 11:27 AM   #83
roger 04 rt
Beastly Adventurer
 
roger 04 rt's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Massachusetts
Oddometer: 2,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
Went to #8 this morning. I can feel that the bike is one step closer. This early in the stage, I will just share the observations. Bike seemed to pick up a little better throttle response in the areas of riding it was behind. When I whack the throttle in first, it is now a little closer to fly out of control, as it was before. I can hear the tone while cruising being a bit crispier..... towards proper fuel. I only put 20 miles on it, So I will ride more, and share.

Question to my fellow riders who have gs-911's...... Do you have any prints, or other why stored data, that specifies exactly when the BMSK runs in Closed loop, and when in open. No speculation...... or I heard this..... or from a 12GS...... etc..... But hard data from a 8GS......??????
I have some hard data from jscottyk. I will go through it and publish.
roger 04 rt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2013, 11:44 AM   #84
ebrabaek OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: El Paso,NM
Oddometer: 4,452
Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
I have some hard data from jscottyk. I will go through it and publish.
Awesome....
Thanks Roger.
__________________


Erling
ebrabaek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2013, 11:50 AM   #85
aclundwall
Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2013
Location: Rowlett, TX
Oddometer: 38
Keeping all of this stuff straight gives me a headache.

As I said before, I've got a PC-V and AT sitting on my workbench...once my Twalcom headers get here, I'll probably install the whole thing. But I used another DynoJet product (Power Vision) on my last bike, a HD Dyna. That device wasn't a piggyback unit like the PC-V...it actually wrote new base maps to the Delphi ECU on the bike. But many of the concepts (and using the Autotune) were very similar.

I did a lot of reading back then, and thought I had a good handle on it. But it had been a while, and when I bought the PC-V, I found I had to relearn much of what I'd forgotten, and of course, learn the differences between the system with which I was familiar, and the PC-V! Along the way, I learn about the existence of booster plugs, and XIEDs, and the water got muddier yet! But I think I'm getting a handle on it now. I offer this as my summation of how 'I' think the three methods work, and how they differ from one another. This isn't presented as fact...nor am I'm trying to champion one method over the other! If I have any of this wrong (and that is sure possible), please let me know!

Both the booster plug and the XIED, if I understand correctly, allow the BMSK to maintain it's full functionality...that is, closed loop at cruise, open loop elsewhere. Closed loop is at steady-state cruising. In closed loop, the system measures the actual AFR using the 02 sensor(s), and tries to maintain a value of 14.7 (stoich). Open loop is everywhere else...and fueling and timing decisions are made by the BMSK basked on it's base map. So, the booster plug fools the BMSK into thinking ambient temp is 20 degrees less than actual. The XIED fools the BMSK by ofsetting the signal coming from the O2 sensor, which tells the BMSK that the resultant AFR is one thing, when really it's richer than that. But both leave the 02 sensors in place! That's a key difference when compared to the PC-V!

I definitely see advantages here...both methods are inexpensive, simple, and easy to deploy! But I see some disadvantages, too! First, the booster plug: It seems to me that the booster plug is going to change the open loop areas only! In closed loop operation (cruise), the BMSK will determine the resultant AFR using the O2 sensors, and adjust fuel based on that, regardless of the ambient air temperature! It's in open loop operation where the BMSK will resort to its base map, and dump fuel based on a combination of RPM, throttle position, and Intake Air Temp (IAT).

On the other hand, The XIED adjusts the signal from the 02 sensors, so it's effect is definitely going to be applied during closed loop operation! But I wonder how (or if) it will do anything at all during open loop running, when the 02 sensor isn't being used to calculate how much fuel to add?

So, it looks to me like the booster plug enrichens the open loop operation, and the XIED enrichens the closed loop operation! Once again, please understand I'm not STATING this as fact...this is just the way it looks to me! But based on that, I wonder if perhaps these two devices in tandem would be the ideal situation!?!? As an aside, I cannot see where either method should lose effectiveness over time.

But back to PC-V and Autotune for a bit (and perhaps I should have led with this...). Years ago, in a conversation with Jamie Long from Fuel Moto, and another conversation with some guys at DynoJet, I was told that the minute one disconnects the stock narrow band O2 sensors, one takes the ECU out of closed loop operation...even at what are normally closed loop portions of the map (i.e., cruise)! When these ECUs are in open loop, whatever the reason, they default back to their base map to provide fuel, ignition timing, etc. So, I was told, as soon as I added the wideband sensors and AT to my HD, I was running open loop...ALWAYS. Again, on my HD, I was using PowerVision, and not Power Commander...but the ECU would have acted the same way with a PC-V instead...that is, it would have been running in open loop as long as I continued to run it with the AT installed.

And this makes sense, if you think about it! For those that don't know, the wideband sensors that come with the Autotune don't plug into the bikes original ECU...they plug into the AutoTune module. On the BMW's, it's the same way. And if you run a PC-V without Autotune, you simply disconnect the O2 sensor altogether! So, I suspect that, like it was with my HD, the minute I disconnect the stock NB O2 sensors from my BMSK, I'm in open loop! Again, this is the big difference between the PC-V and the other two methods...the Booster Plug and XIED don't disable closed loop operation, because they leave the stock 02 sensors connected! But I digress...

Anyway, with a PC-V and AT, we're in open loop, even in areas that would have been closed loop (e.g. stoich) otherwise! That means that the BMSK reverts to its base map to determine how much fuel to inject into the engine. And the whole point of the PC-V is to intercept that signal on its way to the injector, and add or subtract a bit of fuel (usually add) on top of it! For all it's extra cost and more complexity, the PC-V and Autotune do give one distinct advantage...you are not adding a set amount of fuel everywhere...you're free (using the AFR and fuel tables of the PC-V map) to add fuel where you want it, and leave it more or less alone where you don't. You can choose whatever AFR you like, for whatever part of the map you want! You could select an AFR in the 13.0-13.5 range for most of the map, but put an AFR of 14.0 in for the cruise areas. Or you could set an AFR of 13.7 everywhere.

For a while, I was having some trouble figuring out how the BMSK wouldn't continually be fighting the PC-V to put the mixture back to where it thought it should be. But then I remembered my conversations with Fuel Moto and DJ. And once I realized that the BMSK, with PC-V installed, is in open loop, it all made sense! It made sense because, in that mode of operation, the BMSK isn't trying to calculate the resultant AFR anymore (it can't, because it needs the stock NB O2 sensor to do that, and it's been removed!)...it's just reverting to its base map! Erling, I think this answers the question you and I were discussing offline, and that was mentioned early in this thread.

Besides the cost and somewhat more involved installation, not to mention working with the tables once it's up and running, another disadvantage of the PC-V is that the BMSK doesn't realize that the PC-V is adding fuel! And so when our bike's OBC calculates fuel mileage, it's going to divide the miles (kilometers) driven by the gallons (liters) that the BMSK thinks were used. This number is always going to be wrong, unless you have zeros in all the spaces in the fuel map of the PC-V (meaning it's not adding any extra fuel)!

And obviously, actual fuel mileage is going to go down! It's almost inevitable...But does anyone really expect that they're going to improve power (by ADDING fuel) without paying a penalty in increased fuel consumption? Personally, I'm expecting about a 4-5mpg drop based on the riding I do.

I didn't really have a point here, I guess, other than to perhaps address some of the questions I had when I started looking into all this stuff. I hope it helps somebody, somehow.

Art

aclundwall screwed with this post 11-15-2013 at 02:55 PM
aclundwall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2013, 12:02 PM   #86
jscottyk
Gnarly Adventurer
 
jscottyk's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2007
Location: Austin, Texas
Oddometer: 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
..
Question to my fellow riders who have gs-911's...... Do you have any prints, or other why stored data, that specifies exactly when the BMSK runs in Closed loop, and when in open. No speculation...... or I heard this..... or from a 12GS...... etc..... But hard data from a 8GS......??????
Yes. We captured all the data that the GS-911 publishes from the BMS-K during a number of runs during the beta. This log file includes Lambda control factor and Lambda sensor voltage. Roger will do a better job in clearly articulating the meaning of those two but the short answer is "Yes, we can see when the engine is in open loop and when it's in closed loop."
jscottyk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2013, 12:21 PM   #87
jscottyk
Gnarly Adventurer
 
jscottyk's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2007
Location: Austin, Texas
Oddometer: 329
aclundwall, thanks for posting that. Couple comments on the below. Hightlighs are mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aclundwall View Post
And this makes sense, if you think about it! For those that don't know, the wideband sensors that come with the Autotune don't plug into the bikes original ECU...they plug into the AutoTune module. On the BMW's, it's the same way. And if you run a PC-V without Autotune, you simply disconnect the O2 sensor altogether! So, I suspect that, like it was with my HD, the minute I disconnect the stock NB O2 sensors from my BMSK, I'm in open loop! Again, this is the big difference between the PC-V and the other two methods...the Booster Plug and XIED don't disable closed loop operation, because they leave the stock 02 sensors connected! But I digress...

Anyway, with a PC-V and AT, we're in open loop, even in areas that would have been closed loop (e.g. stoich) otherwise! That means that the BMSK reverts to its base map to determine how much fuel to inject into the engine. And the whole point of the PC-V is to intercept that signal on its way to the injector, and add or subtract a bit of fuel (usually add) on top of it! For all it's extra cost and more complexity, the PC-V and Autotune do give one distinct advantage...you are not adding a set amount of fuel everywhere...you're free (using the AFR and fuel tables of the PC-V map) to add fuel where you want it, and leave it more or less alone where you don't. You can choose whatever AFR you like, for whatever part of the map you want! You could select an AFR in the 13.0-13.5 range for most of the map, but put an AFR of 14.0 in for the cruise areas. Or you could set an AFR of 13.7 everywhere.
In my opinion, one of the main benefits of the XIED is that it keeps the BMS-K in the picture. Specifically it's adaptation routines. While it's true you get to more carefully fine tune the fuel curve with PC-V and Autotune, you are also ignoring an number of other important variables when the BMS-K is in open loop. Such as ambient temp, throttle position, knock (either from a sensor or calculated), and so on and so forth.

Again, Roger will do a better job articulating this than I can.
jscottyk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2013, 12:53 PM   #88
aclundwall
Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2013
Location: Rowlett, TX
Oddometer: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
aclundwall, thanks for posting that. Couple comments on the below. Hightlighs are mine.



In my opinion, one of the main benefits of the XIED is that it keeps the BMS-K in the picture. Specifically it's adaptation routines. While it's true you get to more carefully fine tune the fuel curve with PC-V and Autotune, you are also ignoring an number of other important variables when the BMS-K is in open loop. Such as ambient temp, throttle position, knock (either from a sensor or calculated), and so on and so forth.

Again, Roger will do a better job articulating this than I can.
Again...I'm stating my disclaimer...I'm not a fuel injection expert... But I think a more accurate statement is that it keeps closed loop operation of the BMSK in the picture. BMSK is always present, and operational...but it's only adaptive in closed loop operation. As you point out, keeping the BMSK in closed loop allows it to preserve its adaptive ability! But since these adaptation routines only apply in closed loop, what does the XIED give us in open loop?

That's why I asked if perhaps the booster plug along with the XIED wouldn't be a really potent combination!

I'm not trying to disparage the XIED (or the booster plug), and I hope that wasn't the impression I'm giving! I've never used either one, and lots of people that have report they love them! I'm just trying to collect more info. I'm all about the best solution for my bike....
aclundwall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2013, 01:11 PM   #89
jscottyk
Gnarly Adventurer
 
jscottyk's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2007
Location: Austin, Texas
Oddometer: 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by aclundwall View Post
...As you point out, keeping the BMSK in closed loop allows it to preserve its adaptive ability! But since these adaptation routines only apply in closed loop, what does the XIED give us in open loop?

That's why I asked if perhaps the booster plug along with the XIED wouldn't be a really potent combination!
....
It's my understanding the BMS-K has two sets of fuel trim values. Long-term and short-term. The long-term are the purvey of the closed-loop functionality. The short-term are for the open-loop functionality but the BMS-K also makes adjustments to the short-term based on the adaptation represented in the long-term values. So, the XIED is also affecting open-loop running.

Again, that's my layman's understanding and description.
jscottyk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2013, 01:30 PM   #90
terryckdbf
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: Perry, Ga
Oddometer: 856
By definition is there any need for adaptation in closed loop? If the goal is stoich with Lambda input what does adaptation bring to the table? Does not the correction from the ECU always lag the Lambda output?

There is strong evidence the BMSK is active in open loop.

Terry
terryckdbf is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 07:21 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014