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Old 11-15-2013, 01:58 PM   #91
aclundwall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terryckdbf View Post
By definition is there any need for adaptation in closed loop? If the goal is stoich with Lambda input what does adaptation bring to the table? Does not the correction from the ECU always lag the Lambda output?

There is strong evidence the BMSK is active in open loop.

Terry
There are things that can change from moment to moment...air temp, atmospheric pressure...whether in closed or open loop. I would imagine that closed loop operation involves tiny adjustments more or less constantly to maintain an AFR of 14.7 (stoich).

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by your last sentence...BMSK is always active...open or closed loop. Do you mean that it's always adaptive in some way, regardless of which mode? Perhaps so...I certainly don't know for sure.

I'm reasonably confident of this, though...with the PC-V, the BMSK can't be making adaptive adjustments based on information from the O2 sensor, because it's no longer connected! Even if you use the AutoTune module with the included wide band 02 sensor, it's still not plugged into the BMSK..it's wired into the AT module.
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Old 11-15-2013, 02:04 PM   #92
ebrabaek OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jscottyk View Post
aclundwall, thanks for posting that. Couple comments on the below. Hightlighs are mine.



In my opinion, one of the main benefits of the XIED is that it keeps the BMS-K in the picture. Specifically it's adaptation routines. While it's true you get to more carefully fine tune the fuel curve with PC-V and Autotune, you are also ignoring an number of other important variables when the BMS-K is in open loop. Such as ambient temp, throttle position, knock (either from a sensor or calculated), and so on and so forth.

Again, Roger will do a better job articulating this than I can.
Actually the PC-5/AT does know throttle position. You calibrate it with a few twists after install. I agree with everything else you said.
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Old 11-15-2013, 02:06 PM   #93
ebrabaek OP
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Originally Posted by aclundwall View Post
Again...I'm stating my disclaimer...I'm not a fuel injection expert... But I think a more accurate statement is that it keeps closed loop operation of the BMSK in the picture. BMSK is always present, and operational...but it's only adaptive in closed loop operation. As you point out, keeping the BMSK in closed loop allows it to preserve its adaptive ability! But since these adaptation routines only apply in closed loop, what does the XIED give us in open loop?

That's why I asked if perhaps the booster plug along with the XIED wouldn't be a really potent combination!

I'm not trying to disparage the XIED (or the booster plug), and I hope that wasn't the impression I'm giving! I've never used either one, and lots of people that have report they love them! I'm just trying to collect more info. I'm all about the best solution for my bike....
Valid argument, I think, but I do not have enough experience to comment on the validity....
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Old 11-15-2013, 02:13 PM   #94
ebrabaek OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aclundwall View Post
There are things that can change from moment to moment...air temp, atmospheric pressure...whether in closed or open loop. I would imagine that closed loop operation involves tiny adjustments more or less constantly to maintain an AFR of 14.7 (stoich).

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by your last sentence...BMSK is always active...open or closed loop. Do you mean that it's always adaptive in some way, regardless of which mode? Perhaps so...I certainly don't know for sure.

I'm reasonably confident of this, though...with the PC-V, the BMSK can't be making adaptive adjustments based on information from the O2 sensor, because it's no longer connected! Even if you use the AutoTune module with the included wide band 02 sensor, it's still not plugged into the BMSK..it's wired into the AT module.
Perhaps we mean the same, but I just want to clear some of the ambiguity. With the PC-5 install you do not remove the stock O2 bung, and thus the software of the BMSK remains unchanged....and fully functional, open and closed loop. The PC-5 just adds what ever fuel it sees fit, based on your input base map. It does so regardless if the BMSK is in open or closed. Add to that , when you install Auto tune in addition, you then forces the BMSK in open loop, with the loss of stock O2 input, and the PC-5 now base the add/subtract fuel on the target AFR.
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Old 11-15-2013, 02:35 PM   #95
aclundwall
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Roger posted this a few posts ago, in response to a question about the way the booster plug worked (by spoofing the air temp).

Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
I understand what you're saying, and no offense intended, but you're looking at it from the wrong angle.


The BMSK always makes an Open Loop calculation using all the sensors except the O2 sensor. Let's say that it arrives at an answer that 3 mS injection pulses with meet the needs of 8 degrees of throttle at 3500 RPM and 14.7:1 AFR.

Now if it can, the BMSK also uses its closed loop routine to figure out (by adjusting the fuel a little up and a little down) how much fuel is needed to achieve the O2 sensor's 14.7:1 transition from 800 mV to 100 mV. Let's say it works out that it only needs 2.7 mS of fuel. That is 10% less than the Open Loop calculation.

What it does, after time, is save that correction and hundreds of others. It then uses the correction during Open Loop fueling. That's Adaptation.

So if you lower the air temp, the BMSK will eventually figure out it is over-fueling and make the correction through the Closed Loop Adaptation process. The beauty of this is that it keeps your bike running well even as it ages.
This goes along with what I said in the novel I submitted a few posts back...It seems to me that the booster plug will have essentially no effect (once the BMSK makes corrections based on measurements of the actual AFR using the O2 sensor) in the closed loop portion of the operating range! However, outside closed loop, BMSK won't be adapting, since the O2 sensor is out of the picture...so the booster plug's effect will continue to be felt there.

That's not necessarily a bad thing, right? After all...in cruise (closed loop=stoich=steady-state operation), most of us can probably live with the lean condition...it will result in better mileage if you cruise a lot on pavement (like I do). But when you grab the throttle, and leave closed loop, the booster plug will be adding fuel like it was designed to do!
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Old 11-15-2013, 02:42 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
Perhaps we mean the same, but I just want to clear some of the ambiguity. With the PC-5 install you do not remove the stock O2 bung, and thus the software of the BMSK remains unchanged....and fully functional, open and closed loop. The PC-5 just adds what ever fuel it sees fit, based on your input base map. It does so regardless if the BMSK is in open or closed. Add to that , when you install Auto tune in addition, you then forces the BMSK in open loop, with the loss of stock O2 input, and the PC-5 now base the add/subtract fuel on the target AFR.
The instructions on the PC-V say to remove the electrical plug from the O2 sensor. Page 6, step 16: "unplug the O2 sensor from the main wiring harness (Fig. L.). The Stock O2 sensor will no longer be connected to anything. It can be removed from the exhaust if desired."

Of course, if you removed it, you'd have a hole that would have to be plugged...or if you also use the Autotune, you'd put your WB O2 sensor in there!

So, I'm pretty certain you're going to kick BMSK into open loop if you install the PC-V the way the instructions tell you to do it!

Here's a link to the DJ page with the instructions I'm referring to: http://www.powercommander.com/downlo.../eng12-008.pdf
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Old 11-15-2013, 03:39 PM   #97
terryckdbf
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Aclundwall

I am enjoying your input. The Boosterplug is not a mystery.

http://www.boosterplug.com/shop/cms-24.html

The BMSK is active in open loop, just as you quoted Roger "The BMSK always makes an Open Loop calculation using all the sensors except the O2 sensor."

Yes the PC V requires the O2 sensors to be disconnected.

When you do your install please post your sequence of map determination as well as the results.

Lastly, do not discount the closed loop portion of your riding as minimal, it can be 50% or more of the total ride as you stated you ride a lot on pavement.

Be well

Hopefully Erling is out riding and will give an update soon.

Terry
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Old 11-15-2013, 03:57 PM   #98
aclundwall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terryckdbf View Post
Aclundwall

I am enjoying your input. The Boosterplug is not a mystery.

http://www.boosterplug.com/shop/cms-24.html

The BMSK is active in open loop, just as you quoted Roger "The BMSK always makes an Open Loop calculation using all the sensors except the O2 sensor."

Yes the PC V requires the O2 sensors to be disconnected.

When you do your install please post your sequence of map determination as well as the results.

Lastly, do not discount the closed loop portion of your riding as minimal, it can be 50% or more of the total ride as you stated you ride a lot on pavement.

Be well

Hopefully Erling is out riding and will give an update soon.

Terry
Erling's a busy boy! He's probably going to get strung up by the Rekluse fans if he doesn't keep working on that. Luckily, he can test all this stuff at once just by riding his motorcycle!

I went to the page you referenced. It was very informative...the "Full Version" of the explanation was interesting reading. It both confirmed what I said, and filled in the answer to the question I asked about what good it would be in closed loop operations. I'm quoting here from the boosterplug.com page. The italicized, bolded emphasis was added by me:

"In Open Loop bikes you will add 6% of fuel to the entire fuel map (6% is just the example from above - it can be something else with another resistor). This means that if your current fuel consumption is 5.0 liters per 100 km, it will be raised to 5.3 liters. A small fee to pay for an improvement you will enjoy every minute on your ride.

If your bike is Closed Loop, the resistor tuning idea is even smarter. The lambda sensor will try to adjust the mixture back to the preprogrammed level, but the time delay mentioned earlier will work to our advantage.

In conditions where you maintain constant RPM and throttle opening, the feedback from the lambda sensor will adjust the mixture back to original level, and our small tuning device will sit idle and wait for something to happen. This is fine you don't need the richer mixture at level speed.
"

Thanks for the link to that page!

Art
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Old 11-15-2013, 04:01 PM   #99
ebrabaek OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aclundwall View Post
Roger posted this a few posts ago, in response to a question about the way the booster plug worked (by spoofing the air temp).



This goes along with what I said in the novel I submitted a few posts back...It seems to me that the booster plug will have essentially no effect (once the BMSK makes corrections based on measurements of the actual AFR using the O2 sensor) in the closed loop portion of the operating range! However, outside closed loop, BMSK won't be adapting, since the O2 sensor is out of the picture...so the booster plug's effect will continue to be felt there.

That's not necessarily a bad thing, right? After all...in cruise (closed loop=stoich=steady-state operation), most of us can probably live with the lean condition...it will result in better mileage if you cruise a lot on pavement (like I do). But when you grab the throttle, and leave closed loop, the booster plug will be adding fuel like it was designed to do!
The adapt values learned from closed loop operation is applied to open loop, thus over a learning time period the values doe become part of the open loop, thus negating the input from the BP...... at least that is how I read Rogers post...... Perhaps I was mistaken.
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Old 11-15-2013, 04:05 PM   #100
ebrabaek OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aclundwall View Post
The instructions on the PC-V say to remove the electrical plug from the O2 sensor. Page 6, step 16: "unplug the O2 sensor from the main wiring harness (Fig. L.). The Stock O2 sensor will no longer be connected to anything. It can be removed from the exhaust if desired."

Of course, if you removed it, you'd have a hole that would have to be plugged...or if you also use the Autotune, you'd put your WB O2 sensor in there!

So, I'm pretty certain you're going to kick BMSK into open loop if you install the PC-V the way the instructions tell you to do it!

Here's a link to the DJ page with the instructions I'm referring to: http://www.powercommander.com/downlo.../eng12-008.pdf
You are correct, with regard to the install manual. It can however be run with the O2 in place and connected, I know many that do, but perhaps that discussion should be let loose over in the PC-5/AT thread, as we sort of are twisting in that direction...... As in the PC-5/AT thread, I asked to keep it as such. I think it is only fair to do the same here......
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Old 11-15-2013, 04:11 PM   #101
ebrabaek OP
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" Erling's a busy boy! He's probably going to get strung up by the Rekluse fans if he doesn't keep working on that. Luckily, he can test all this stuff at once just by riding his motorcycle!"

lol...... Between this , and the Rekluse, and daughter tuning 16..... Yeppers Life have been busy. High point today was when after 3 months with a dead battery, my DRZ470 fired right up....... Ahhhhhh..... Now if I can just get the 8GS to have a throttle response of a 55 rwhp 470cc thumper...... Holy smokes, I had forgot how much fun that is......
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Old 11-15-2013, 04:14 PM   #102
aclundwall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
The adapt values learned from closed loop operation is applied to open loop, thus over a learning time period the values doe become part of the open loop, thus negating the input from the BP...... at least that is how I read Rogers post...... Perhaps I was mistaken.
Yes, that's what I understood as well! But it only applies to the portion of the fuel map that's designed to be closed-loop. There are portions of the BMSK's base map where it's not stoich (and therefore, not closed loop). In other words, we know that there are throttle positions and RPM points above which the system goes into open loop mode! I don't know what these actual values are...but I know that once we get outside of them, it's all open loop fueling, and BMSK won't be adapting in those portions of the map! It will just deliver fuel based on RPM/Throttle/IAT.
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Old 11-15-2013, 05:49 PM   #103
ebrabaek OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aclundwall View Post
Yes, that's what I understood as well! But it only applies to the portion of the fuel map that's designed to be closed-loop. There are portions of the BMSK's base map where it's not stoich (and therefore, not closed loop). In other words, we know that there are throttle positions and RPM points above which the system goes into open loop mode! I don't know what these actual values are...but I know that once we get outside of them, it's all open loop fueling, and BMSK won't be adapting in those portions of the map! It will just deliver fuel based on RPM/Throttle/IAT.
Hmmmm...... I read it differently. I really thought those adapts were applied to open loop, as the 8GS really spend most of its time in open loop, thus the reason for the bike to "learn" the values, and apply them to the open loop fueling. Perhaps I am wrong, but that is how I understand it, and the the correspondence with Roger. Maybe I mistook that, but I hope not, as if there are no adapt values learned, and applied to open loop fueling, then I simply cannot use the XIED, as I will not run "stock" open loop non adapted fueling. Lets all sit tight, until Roger can clean this up for us, as I am sure he is laughing now, reading our posts......
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Old 11-15-2013, 05:58 PM   #104
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I do believe it does adapt and store learned values, and applies that to open loop...... Copy of an earlier post from Roger.....:

The BMSK always makes an Open Loop calculation using all the sensors except the O2 sensor. Let's say that it arrives at an answer that 3 mS injection pulses with meet the needs of 8 degrees of throttle at 3500 RPM and 14.7:1 AFR.

Now if it can, the BMSK also uses its closed loop routine to figure out (by adjusting the fuel a little up and a little down) how much fuel is needed to achieve the O2 sensor's 14.7:1 transition from 800 mV to 100 mV. Let's say it works out that it only needs 2.7 mS of fuel. That is 10% less than the Open Loop calculation.


What it does, after time, is save that correction and hundreds of others. It then uses the correction during Open Loop fueling. That's Adaptation.

So if you lower the air temp, the BMSK will eventually figure out it is over-fueling and make the correction through the Closed Loop Adaptation process. The beauty of this is that it keeps your bike running well even as it ages.

I read that as it is adapting, and applying that to open loop, essentially correcting the open loop fueling, to what it has learned in closed loop.......
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Old 11-15-2013, 06:41 PM   #105
roger 04 rt
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Thanks Erling for adding my last post to yours, with the color highlighting.

A difficulty here is that so many aftermarket products for cars and motorcycles make claims that can't be substantiated with measurements. This leads to some misunderstanding of how most FI systems work, and confusion about how they can be effectively modified.

If we take this in small bites we may reach a mutual understanding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aclundwall View Post
Yes, that's what I understood as well! But it only applies to the portion of the fuel map that's designed to be closed-loop. There are portions of the BMSK's base map where it's not stoich (and therefore, not closed loop). In other words, we know that there are throttle positions and RPM points above which the system goes into open loop mode! I don't know what these actual values are...but I know that once we get outside of them, it's all open loop fueling, and BMSK won't be adapting in those portions of the map! It will just deliver fuel based on RPM/Throttle/IAT.
There are two purposes for calculating Adaptation Values in the Closed Loop area.

1. Short term trims that make it easier for the BMSK to find 14.7:1. If a moment ago the BMSK added 3% to fueling, it will add 3% now and find its closed loop target faster

2. Long term trims. Think of these as the averaging of earlier short term trims. The purpose of these is to provide INSTANTANEOUS corrections to Open Loop fueling. For example, let's say you were running E10 fuel, your fuel pressure was 6% low, your air filter was 5% clogged, your injectors were 2% below average, your air temp sensor was 3% high and your barometric pressure sensor was 2% high. This would mean you would always need 15% more fuel than Open Loop would calculate. Long term trims calculated from short term trims would eventually reach 15% and your fueling would be accurate in open loop.

Imagine how poorly a FI engine would run if it didn't learn long term trims?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
Hmmmm...... I read it differently. I really thought those adapts were applied to open loop, as the 8GS really spend most of its time in open loop, thus the reason for the bike to "learn" the values, and apply them to the open loop fueling. Perhaps I am wrong, but that is how I understand it, and the the correspondence with Roger. Maybe I mistook that, but I hope not, as if there are no adapt values learned, and applied to open loop fueling, then I simply cannot use the XIED, as I will not run "stock" open loop non adapted fueling. Lets all sit tight, until Roger can clean this up for us, as I am sure he is laughing now, reading our posts......
When I present jscottyk's data you will see that the BMSK on an F800GS spends 30-60% of its time in closed loop. I'll try to get to it tomorrow.

The major benefit of adaptive fueling is to assist in the correction of open loop fueling, per my example above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
I do believe it does adapt and store learned values, and applies that to open loop...... Copy of an earlier post from Roger.....:

The BMSK always makes an Open Loop calculation using all the sensors except the O2 sensor. Let's say that it arrives at an answer that 3 mS injection pulses with meet the needs of 8 degrees of throttle at 3500 RPM and 14.7:1 AFR.

Now if it can, the BMSK also uses its closed loop routine to figure out (by adjusting the fuel a little up and a little down) how much fuel is needed to achieve the O2 sensor's 14.7:1 transition from 800 mV to 100 mV. Let's say it works out that it only needs 2.7 mS of fuel. That is 10% less than the Open Loop calculation.


What it does, after time, is save that correction and hundreds of others. It then uses the correction during Open Loop fueling. That's Adaptation.

So if you lower the air temp, the BMSK will eventually figure out it is over-fueling and make the correction through the Closed Loop Adaptation process. The beauty of this is that it keeps your bike running well even as it ages.

I read that as it is adapting, and applying that to open loop, essentially correcting the open loop fueling, to what it has learned in closed loop.......
What has been lost in the discussion is LIMP HOME FUELING. When the BMSK loses its Closed Loop reference, it tries to keep the catalytic converter operating efficiently by varying the cruise fueling roughly +/- 5%. This means that running Open loop all the time results in the PC V getting a different fueling value for the same rpm and TPS cells in the PCV map. What do we imagine the Autotune does when it sees its input data changing second by second for the same cell. Do we think it keeps changing or so we think it averages what it sees? Does it assume the low value or take the highest?

Dynojet has NO guidance in there literature on how there product reacts to this confusion. For the R1100 and R1150 it added Closed Loop Wideband input to the Motronic. It didn't have a good experience with this and doesn't seem to offer it on its newest products. The truth is that the Wideband was the best feature of the PC III USB for Motronic because it kept the Motronic operational, meaning no limp home fueling.
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