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Old 11-27-2013, 12:30 PM   #61
JimVonBaden
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Originally Posted by Jim Moore View Post
Hey GS Addict,

How do you make something like that? Is it done on a lathe?

I'm not even sure what a lathe does, but I've heard the term before. I really need to get a job in a machine shop for awhile. Is that where you learn stuff like this?
This is a decent example of how it is done:



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Old 11-27-2013, 01:01 PM   #62
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Stay with me on this.....

Maybe that cavity is SUPPOSED to fill with fluid. Thats what lubes the throwout bearing. That would also explain the need for an actual gasket there.

Just a thought...

Pretty sure its wrong though since there wasn't much of a sign of 90wt in there or on the push rod....actually that would encourage oil flowing down the the pushrod tub and into the clutch....disregard this ramble completely.
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Old 11-27-2013, 01:04 PM   #63
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Sniperx: I am assuming that there is enough clearance between the pushrod and i.d. of the hollow input shaft so that the limited vacuum simply draws from the clutch side. No vacuum is applied to the interior of the gear box. There is certainly enough gap for leaked gear oil in the cavity to make it to the clutch disc. Anyway it was just a thought not a recommendation.

You still have not made a case, at least to me, for not seating input shaft seal all the way in to the cavity. Steptoe ought to know and that is what he says that he does. Easy enough to make the pvc seating tool if you want to.

I'm fairly certain that I say an uncovered bearing from the cavity in my 2000 build date. That does not mean that yours is not covered. I don't see what difference that makes anyhow. I do not recall an groove cut in the cavity to oil the bearing such that driving the oil seal in too far would block it.
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Old 11-27-2013, 01:12 PM   #64
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Sniperx: I am assuming that there is enough clearance between the pushrod and i.d. of the hollow input shaft so that the limited vacuum simply draws from the clutch side. No vacuum is applied to the interior of the gear box. There is certainly enough gap for leaked gear oil in the cavity to make it to the clutch disc. Anyway it was just a thought not a recommendation.

You still have not made a case, at least to me, for not seating input shaft seal all the way in to the cavity. Steptoe ought to know and that is what he says that he does. Easy enough to make the pvc seating tool if you want to.

I'm fairly certain that I say an uncovered bearing from the cavity in my 2000 build date. That does not mean that yours is not covered. I don't see what difference that makes anyhow. I do not recall an groove cut in the cavity to oil the bearing such that driving the oil seal in too far would block it.
I'll get some pics this time while I'm in there. I'll even use the snake cam and get in there close if it looks like something.
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Old 11-27-2013, 04:04 PM   #65
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My BMW install tool has a lip roughly 1.5mm (where the 0.170" is in the drawing). It also has a pilot to guide the seal lip over the input shaft.

Between the slave and the input seal should be dry. Not only do I omit the gasket completely, but I drill a drain hole. I actually have a bad slave bike on a lift now; the brake fluid ran down the pushrod and soaked the friction disk. With a drain hole he'd have noticed it before it got to the point that I had to disassemble the transmission to fix it right.
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Old 11-27-2013, 07:20 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Moore View Post
Hey GS Addict,

How do you make something like that? Is it done on a lathe?

I'm not even sure what a lathe does, but I've heard the term before. I really need to get a job in a machine shop for awhile. Is that where you learn stuff like this?
Yes, its done on a lathe. It's a shop tool that I can't live without.
It gets daily use.

Although I am a licensed Industrial Electrician I spent many years working in Process Control and Automation and had full access to machine shops. I was very fortunate to have had training from the old European masters who were more than willing to share what they knew if anyone showed interest.
We were also allowed to work on personal projects after hours, not common today.
I went into business 16 years ago for myself and own an electrical manufacturing company.
At 56 I now look around me and there are few young men who are interested in anything but keyboard jobs. I wonder where it will all end up. The trades in NA are shrinking.

If you get the chance to work at a machine shop, go for it. It's a pretty cool trade.
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Old 11-28-2013, 03:42 PM   #67
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Well I got in there again.

Removing the seal was much easier this time. It was definately leaking from that seal. It was sealed all the way back there. When you remove the seal you expose a channel on top about 1/8 inch across. I inspected the shaft with my cam and it looked pretty good, didn't cause any damage. Must be hardened. I pushed the new seal in with my tool until it was flush with the case. The second lip barely clears the end of the shaft, but it's there. I ran the bike for 15 minutes plus 1 minute at 4000rpm....drY as a bone.


Th bearing behind the seal definately is sealed or shielded. It's made by nsk. This could be why my seal wasn't working...the oil can't clear fast enough due to the sealed bearing. It still doesn't change that the seal could contact he balls or cage.


So there's a few points here. Flush, 1.5mm, .170", 4.5mm, and to the bearing. So far, to the bearing doesn't seem to be universal advice. 4.5 comes from the dealer and confirmed by measuring Photos. .170 is close to 4.5mm. Flush was recommended on another forum and is obviously he hear minimum.


So now I'm stuck how deep to go now.....
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Old 11-28-2013, 05:27 PM   #68
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I'll try to double-check tomorrow and make sure I was looking at the right install tool.

Until then, just take a bunch of measurements and have a good think.
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Old 11-30-2013, 04:50 PM   #69
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Well, I went ahead and split the difference and made a spacer for the tool. I pushed he seal into about 2.5mm past flush. I ran a shorter test with the same results. I buttoned the whole hint back up and bled the system for a reservoirs worth of fluid to flush any contminants. Topped up the transmission with some highend 80-90 weight for racing with moly in it and took it out. Works perfectly. The tranny has lost that industrial tractor feel and everything's nice quiet. Also played in the dirt a little today....this thing is fun off road. Dumped it on an hillside during a u turn in soft dirt. Did it the worst way too...wheels going up hill. After some cursing all was good again.

I took lots of pics including some details he instructions leave out.
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Old 12-01-2013, 11:34 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniperx View Post
Well I got in there again.

Removing the seal was much easier this time. It was definitely leaking from that seal. It was sealed all the way back there. When you remove the seal you expose a channel on top about 1/8 inch across...

...The bearing behind the seal definitely is sealed or shielded. It's made by nsk. This could be why my seal wasn't working...the oil can't clear fast enough due to the sealed bearing. It still doesn't change that the seal could contact he balls or cage...

So there's a few points here. Flush, 1.5mm, .170", 4.5mm, and to the bearing. So far (seating the seal) to the bearing doesn't seem to be universal advice. 4.5 comes from the dealer and confirmed by measuring Photos. .170 is close to 4.5mm. Flush was recommended on another forum and is obviously the bear minimum.
Important and should be in the sticky. Hopefully Steptoe will update his advice on this. I must have overlooked that oil channel on mine. I don't know why my seal which was driven all the way to the bearing isn't leaking. Could mean that I'm starving that bearing but perhaps it's sufficiently oiled from the gear side.
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Old 12-01-2013, 02:07 PM   #71
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The notch is about 5.5mm deep whereas the seal is 8mm thick, so the seal will not go in far enough to leave a gap at the top.

I was looking at the 721 driver which is for a different version of the 6-speed so ignore my 1.5mm measurement.
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Old 12-01-2013, 05:42 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniperx View Post
Well I got in there again.

Removing the seal was much easier this time. It was definately leaking from that seal. It was sealed all the way back there. When you remove the seal you expose a channel on top about 1/8 inch across. I inspected the shaft with my cam and it looked pretty good, didn't cause any damage. Must be hardened. I pushed the new seal in with my tool until it was flush with the case. The second lip barely clears the end of the shaft, but it's there. I ran the bike for 15 minutes plus 1 minute at 4000rpm....drY as a bone.


Th bearing behind the seal definately is sealed or shielded. It's made by nsk. This could be why my seal wasn't working...the oil can't clear fast enough due to the sealed bearing. It still doesn't change that the seal could contact he balls or cage.


So there's a few points here. Flush, 1.5mm, .170", 4.5mm, and to the bearing. So far, to the bearing doesn't seem to be universal advice. 4.5 comes from the dealer and confirmed by measuring Photos. .170 is close to 4.5mm. Flush was recommended on another forum and is obviously he hear minimum.


So now I'm stuck how deep to go now.....
I got the .170 from the first transmission I did (mine).
It was original.
I always record measurements before disassembling.
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Old 12-02-2013, 09:24 AM   #73
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Well, went for a long ride this weekend, no further problems.

It seems the thing is designed to accommodate different depths, possibly for rebuilding purposes...allowing a clean shaft seal area.

I would say any depth between 1mm-4.5mm is safe. Flush puts the second seal lip JUST at the end of the shaft right at the little bevel at the end of the shaft. This is too close in my opinion. "All the way to the bearing" may work in some cases, but definitely NOT in my case. The official word from BMW is to use the tool which sets it in at 4.5mm.

A theory: With the seal all the way to the bearing, there may not be enough space for the oil to accumulate and flow back into the case. By setting the depth, the oil pools below the seal level. This is just a theory though.
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Old 12-02-2013, 12:54 PM   #74
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Lots of good information in this thread. Thanks for sharing with us your experiences.

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Old 07-24-2014, 11:44 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonLargiader View Post
My BMW install tool has a lip roughly 1.5mm (where the 0.170" is in the drawing). It also has a pilot to guide the seal lip over the input shaft.

Between the slave and the input seal should be dry. Not only do I omit the gasket completely, but I drill a drain hole. I actually have a bad slave bike on a lift now; the brake fluid ran down the pushrod and soaked the friction disk. With a drain hole he'd have noticed it before it got to the point that I had to disassemble the transmission to fix it right.
Would you please show where you drill a drain hole?
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