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Old 11-26-2013, 04:07 AM   #1
Beezer Josh OP
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Repair or replace final drive splines?

So I think the time has come to either send my final drive off to Hansen's for a spline rebuild or to replace the driving pinion with one of these. My old splines are somewhere in the 15-20% range with a little more than 70,000 miles on the clock.

Does anyone have any experience with these pinions? It would be cheaper to replace the old than have it rebuilt, but if the quality is utter crap, I'd rather pay a bit more for a better job. Capital Cycle also isn't too far away, so I wouldn't have to wait for repair times or shipping...and as motorcycling is my therapy, I want to have the bike down for the least amount of time possible. With the exception of boring cylinders, cutting valve seats, and grinding crankshaft journals, I've never sent anything else in for work and particularly enjoy working on my bikes myself.

In addition to pressing out the rivets on the rear wheel, are there any other particularly difficult aspects to this job? I would assume a new drive would need to be shimmed, but I've done that on crankshafts and transmissions, so I don't think it should be a problem. Any good websites on final drive rebuilds?
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Old 11-26-2013, 04:18 AM   #2
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Good question!

First-I don't know but I can't imagine a repair would be le$$ than the part you have linked, certainly take longer. I thought they were nla?

From the ebay listing, this confuses me:


This item for sale is actually machined out of a solid piece of the correct material which ensures good spline strength, wear characteristics, and long life. These splines have been machined to the exact profile required to mesh with the drive coupling in the hub giving it the exact clearance required and minimum backlash; excess backlash accelerates wear. The repair process involves mounting the ring gear in a lathe and machining out the worn splined hub. The hole where the hub was removed is centered exactly with the ring gear center and is dimensioned to accept the repair hub. This ensures that when the hub is finally welded in place it is in true alignment with the ring gear center. The combination of the correct material and precise machining along with accurate positioning ensures a quality repair with maximum life.






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ozmoses screwed with this post 11-26-2013 at 04:31 AM
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Old 11-26-2013, 05:19 AM   #3
Beezer Josh OP
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I was also really confused about that. Does that listing imply that you're only getting the splines, which then need to be welded and machined, or that you're buying an entire new assembly? I was hoping the latter...
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Old 11-26-2013, 05:27 AM   #4
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With the repair piece there is still some critical machining and welding operations that must be completed. In the end I could see where this would cost more than sending the gear off to Hansen's for their repair.

I'd also be concerned about the effects of welding on moving the centers enough to cause gear contact surface changes from original.

I had my final drive splines redone by Hansens and couldn't be happier with the work quality. 4 years later and no noticeable wear.
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Old 11-26-2013, 05:44 AM   #5
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Call Hansen's and ask them. Their work is top-notch (satisfied customer) and they'll answer your questions, too!
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Old 11-26-2013, 06:05 AM   #6
Beezer Josh OP
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I just called Capitol Cycle and the guy said they were just for the splines-that I'd have to send my gear out to someone to have the old ones machined off and have these put on. To Hansen's mine goes!
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Old 11-26-2013, 06:25 AM   #7
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I have a rear drive on the shelf that was done in the manner the ebay site suggests,...... I have the rear drive because the machining and welding was not done right and the drive splines broke off very few miles after the repair. The rear drive was tossed out as junk. One of these days I'll fit another gear set to it.
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Old 11-26-2013, 05:08 PM   #8
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I think what Pokie reports is more common than a satisfactory result. Getting the new piece on straight is not too well understood by the people that do the repair. Maybe not too well understood by anybody.

I suppose there could be some rear ends that did work out.

BJ, I have a spare rear end with splines about like the the ones you have. You could have it for the week or two while yours is being fixed. 32 X 11 I think.

Do you also plan on doing the wheel spline cup? You should you know. CC probably has a good price on the wheel spline cup.
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Old 11-26-2013, 05:22 PM   #9
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Yep, I'm going to do the wheel as well. I'm going to bring it over and let you rivet it in place, disston! Actually, do you have a good or easy way of getting the old rivets out?
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Old 11-26-2013, 06:07 PM   #10
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I did this job once. My experience can be invaluable because the repair failed. Took about 12 years but it did fail.



This is the replacement spline cup that I and a friend of mine put in my rear wheel. We used rivets from BMW. The rivets they supplied were longer than the original ones. If they had been installed correctly they would have held but not shown too well in my photo is that each rivet went in and bent sideways. For several years this was fine but eventually the spline cup would rotate a small amount. It still worked till this last Summer one of the rivets let go with a loud bang. I was two blocks from home and rode there with the wheel making loud scraping noises.

After taking the wheel off, of course, I found the broken rivet wedged against one of the brake shoes. The spline cup was able to rotate much more than before but was still attached. I rode it for a couple of weeks more. I found my spare wheel in the meantime and ordered a new tire. I had the new tire and tube mounted at the new Japanese bike store in my neighborhood, almost half the price that the BMW dealer we both know charges for tire mounting and less than the Triumph/BSA mechanic around the corner from me also.

The second rivet broke and I noticed it but it didn't lodge in the brake shoe so I kept riding that day. Finally put new wheel and tire on the bike. I had to wash the brake shoes, I think there is a leak of something. But actually I've forgotten about it till you brought this up so ill try to remember to look at it sometime soon.

My friend and I had installed the new rivets using a shop press. This is not the correct way to install rivets. This is why they all came out bent to one side. The proper way to install rivets involves an air rivet gun and the correct tooling. Even though I understand this now I would not do the job with rivets if I had to install a new wheel spline. I would use the bolt method described on Snowbum's Tech Pages. The only problem with the bolt method is finding the Aircraft quality bolts recommended but I don't think that would be as hard as doing rivets correctly.

Removing the old rivets destroys the old spline cup but this is not a problem. The rivets are very hard. They look like they are Aluminum but I don't think so. I think they are steel. I ground mine down with an air grinder till they could be punched out with a hammer and punch. Using a center punch on the rivet head and then an over sized drill would possibly work better. Which ever way you remove the rivets the brake drum will not be damaged only the old spline cup.

BTW, I still have this wheel and worn out tire in my storage place. You can see it the day you come by to pick up the spare final drive unit.
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Old 11-26-2013, 06:27 PM   #11
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Not to scold you, when you already know that you did it wrong, but of course your rivets failed the way you did it. The peening of a rivet needs to happen in many, many strokes, not one whack. That way, the whole diameter of the rivet expands to completely fill the hole that it's driven through, in addition to heading over the end. I was teaching small boat building for awhile, and it was always a struggle to convince teenagers to caress a nice button head on a copper rivet, rather than smash the shit out of it. Teenaged boys really like to smash the shit out of things.
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Old 11-26-2013, 06:55 PM   #12
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The replacement spline comes from Siebenrock, It includes the seal journal and a section which presses into the ring gear. It's a very nice piece, probably made by the same people who made them for BMW, but requires some skill and a welder who knows what he's doing. I have a spline section in the shop that came off an OEM ring gear 30 years ago, so apparently BMW screwed 'em up occasionally, too.

Hansens -and for a while, Bobs BMW-do a fine job of welding and remachining the splines. I think either repair is acceptable, but it's nice to get an unworn seal journal.
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Old 11-26-2013, 08:49 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyCash View Post
Not to scold you, when you already know that you did it wrong, but of course your rivets failed the way you did it. The peening of a rivet needs to happen in many, many strokes, not one whack. That way, the whole diameter of the rivet expands to completely fill the hole that it's driven through, in addition to heading over the end. I was teaching small boat building for awhile, and it was always a struggle to convince teenagers to caress a nice button head on a copper rivet, rather than smash the shit out of it. Teenaged boys really like to smash the shit out of things.
+1 with a caveat. You don't want take too many strokes/hits because it work hardens the rivet and it can crack around the perimeter of the head. You also have to have the proper tool to support the rivet on the other side which is a dished punch that sits in a base. Also, the rivet needs to be a very snug fit in the hole it fits into because there is very little expansion taking place along the shank.
To drive the rivet I used an old airhead driveshaft because it would take the hammer blows without distorting on either end and was well above the splined ring so I wouldn't have to worry about hurting myself.
Use the biggest hammer you can wield comfortably, make sure the punch is square and centered to the rivet and you should be able to drive it in less than 5-6 hits. When you're done the rivet head should be at least twice the diameter of the rivet and half as thick. In other words, a 5 mm rivet should have a 10mm head that's 2.5mm thick when you're done. I'm going on memory on the dimensions, it's been a while since I've done this. The method on the other hand I'm sure about.
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Old 11-27-2013, 07:42 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwrench View Post
The replacement spline comes from Siebenrock, It includes the seal journal and a section which presses into the ring gear. It's a very nice piece, probably made by the same people who made them for BMW, but requires some skill and a welder who knows what he's doing. I have a spline section in the shop that came off an OEM ring gear 30 years ago, so apparently BMW screwed 'em up occasionally, too.

Hansens -and for a while, Bobs BMW-do a fine job of welding and remachining the splines. I think either repair is acceptable, but it's nice to get an unworn seal journal.


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Old 11-27-2013, 08:54 AM   #15
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For those interested in the same process, Bob's charges $290.00 if you give them just the gear with around a 2 week turnaround. They use a local guy, but obviously wouldn't give me a name so I could just take it there myself.

Hansen's says $199.90 on their website with 2-3 week turnaround. I can ship 2-day, USPS in a flat rate box there and back for much cheaper.
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