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Old 01-23-2014, 07:37 AM   #106
crazybrit
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Originally Posted by charlie264 View Post
I was thinking the same, if you can get the correct size.
+1. I thought for a given ID, the OD of a roller was greater than a ball.
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Old 01-23-2014, 07:49 AM   #107
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+1. I thought for a given ID, the OD of a roller was greater than a ball.
Hang on a second, roller....you of course mean rollers? No? You mean there is only one.......
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Old 01-23-2014, 07:53 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by charlie264 View Post
Hang on a second, roller....you of course mean rollers? No? You mean there is only one.......
I mean roller and ball as in:

Quote:
Originally Posted by COXR650L View Post
The weak point in the left side bearing is that it's a ball vs roller correct?
Conversation overheard at bearing supply store: what's better a "balls bearing" or a "rollers bearing" Yes, I was referring to the entire bearing assembly.
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Old 01-23-2014, 07:57 AM   #109
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I mean roller and ball as in:
I meant roller/s as in one pad or two......
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Old 01-23-2014, 08:13 AM   #110
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Old 01-23-2014, 11:32 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by kamanya View Post
In the 950's, the right side balancer shaft bearing was updated; old part no: 60030024000 CYL.ROLLER BEAR. Current part number is 60030024100. Both are roller bearings, the former just has a removable race.

I am not sure when they did it, but my Silver 2004 had the original in it. The inner race can be completely removed;





I think they changed over sometime during the 2005 models.

When I changed the cam chains, that race fell into the engine. I got the bearing out and replaced it with the current iteration that they use;

New bearing, race will not come out but has lateral play.

Kamanya,

I have to disagree with you but would happily stand corrected if you can show me exactly what you mean?. I have built a ton of these engines from 2003 right through to 2011 and the right side balancer bearing has never changed in design. It has always been a cylindrical roller, of the same dimensions with a split inner race. This means that the inner race can be removed and is made up of two parts, the main race and a second lip/face race to take out the end float.

Anyway, lets talk balance shafts......

2003-2005.5 Balance shafts....



2003-2005.5 bearing arrangements....ball bearing left, cylindrical roller with split inner race on the right.





2003-2005.5 left side ball bearing.



Now, here is the 2005.5 on set-up. Here, the left side ball bearing is replaced with a cylindrical roller bearing without an inner race and the balance shaft has a different diameter (bigger compared to 2003) as the shaft forms the inner race of the bearing.

Left side on an 05.5 on motor........



Lets compare right side bearings......here is the 05.5 on motors from the inside, as you can see, the cases are designed to prevent the inner race falling into the engine as it is a split race......



Let's now look at the same shot from a 2003 motor......exactly the same design principle, even if a little different casting. There is a lip to prevent the inner race falling into the motor. Notice anything? Yep, exactly the same bearing. Really surprised to hear your inner race fell into the engine, how was this possible? The inner race and casing design prevents this from happening.



Now, just for completeness, here is the difference between the 2005.5 newer left side balance bearing (on the left) and the 2003-2005.5 left side bearing on the right). The earlier ball bearing is the one that should be replaced, regardless. You can see, you cannot retro fit and you cannot get a cylindrical roller bearing with the same external dimensions of the ball bearing, it is a narrow bearing and you typically cannot get narrow cylindricals.



Your 3rd picture showing the race cannot be removed, this is surely because of the casing design, not the bearing. AND, the bearing only has minimal lateral play once it's assembly is completed, the lateral play you talk of at the moment is just the inner race moving side to side because the assembly is not complete.

Why do they have a 2 piece inner race? Due to bearing manufacturing reasons and the ability to assemble bearing with the cage with these dimensions means it has to have a split race

Anyway, hope this helps the thread, I don't want to get into a long debate about why I might be wrong but if I am wrong, I want to know why, tell me / show me with pictures.

Right, got to get on with building some rally bikes. I knew I should not have engaged in technical thread talk, a real time burner......

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Old 01-24-2014, 01:59 AM   #112
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Ok, thanks for putting me right. I have only once replaced the right hand balancer shaft bearing and somehow remembered it being different. I was wrong. In the parts list they do quote a different bearing number, not sure what the difference is now?

As to the race falling into the engine; I had driven the bearing out whist the engine was still in the frame. Once the bearing popped out, the race was hung up on the driver and when I pulled the driver back through the case, it got knocked off by the lip and fell in. I can see now why that would have been impossible with the later cases as they made a change to the design of the lip by adding more to the bottom. On mine, as shown on your photo of the earlier case, there is less than 180 degrees of lip on the top edge leaving an opening enough for my little adventure.

There must have been more than a few pissed off mechanics with races that found their way into the engine for the designers to have made that change.

Cheers

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Old 01-24-2014, 03:09 AM   #113
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Right, got to get on with building some rally bikes. I knew I should not have engaged in technical thread talk, a real time burner......

:Pynd
Time burner yes but very appreciated also =)

Now back to getting some rally bikes going!

This is further into the LC8 engine then I have every been ....yet.

So Im not able to help out but try to follow and learn since I might have to go that far in the future.

Cheers!

/Johan
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Old 01-24-2014, 05:45 AM   #114
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Time burner yes but very appreciated also =)

Now back to getting some rally bikes going!

This is further into the LC8 engine then I have every been ....yet.

So Im not able to help out but try to follow and learn since I might have to go that far in the future.

Cheers!

/Johan

+1 all the help and info shared has been very helpful to me, but Im sure with 950's getting older a lot more people will be getting into the engines soon. I am by no means an expert mechanic and have had a few car engines apart and a few thumper MC engines apart. The 950 has been pretty straight forward, minus a few small issues/nuances but without the help here I really could have screwed something up.

So thanks again to everyone
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Old 01-24-2014, 06:25 AM   #115
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All,

You are very welcome. I hope everything I post is clear, concise and useful to everyone that reads it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kamanya View Post
Ok, thanks for putting me right. I have only once replaced the right hand balancer shaft bearing and somehow remembered it being different. I was wrong.
No problem, thanks for been honest about being wrong. You have to be careful not to lead people down the garden path, there's too many people doing this on here IMO.

With regards to changing the right hand bearing:

1) You should not have to change that bearing unless it has been damaged, it is over engineered.

2) Changing the bearings like you did is asking for trouble anyway. The cases should be split, equalised heating used and no driving force required. I agree you can do it like you did but it is not the correct way and something I would choose to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kamanya View Post
On mine, as shown on your photo of the earlier case, there is less than 180 degrees of lip on the top edge leaving an opening enough for my little adventure.
Kamanya, put your spade away, you are digging deeper. The image with the less than 180 degree inner race support is the later 2005.5 on cases as used in the 990's, I thought you had the early motor? How can your comment be so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kamanya View Post
There must have been more than a few pissed off mechanics with races that found their way into the engine for the designers to have made that change.
What change, there is NO change, the case design and bearing design has always been 'technically' identical. If you drive the bearing out of the case on any LC8 engine incorrectly (the way you did) the inner race will fall out. This has nothing to do with a poor design, it is the mechanic changing the bearing that is at fault.

I'm out of here....

Enjoy your engine rebuilding everybody, be sure to follow the manual carefully and everything will be good. Those guys at KTM do a good job

Lyndon
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Old 01-25-2014, 06:44 PM   #116
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I am in the middle of the same project with my 03 950 (re-badged to 04).

She's been ridden hard and put away wet too many times, swamped a couple times and ridden like it was designed to.

However, after 75k miles the cam chains stayed noisy beyond the initial start up so I decided to dig in. My piston/jug clearance was toast, I knew it wasn't good when I hooked an air compressor up to the spark plug hole and heard air flow like out the crank like vacuum in reverse. Pyndon has been helpful with getting mine back together and hooked me up with new jug/pistons from a much fresher motor, the jugs look like new, mine? Well, there was nearly a mm of clearance in them and the forward cylinder had deep scars. KTM is out of rear cylinders at this time.

I could screw the cam chain tensioner caps all the way in before making contact with the tensioner rail, I think she's plum worn out. One hydraulic tensioner has a lot of slop in it so I am replacing it. I think that it was allowing oil to blead back out causing too much slop at startup.

And the end of my cam chain tensioner decided to find a new home almost wiping out the pulse generator.





Then I found your same issue...



I did find out if you do not have the balancer shaft pressed all the way in, the crank will hit the bulge/lip/stop where the right bearing seats fully on the shaft so I can't see there being much lateral play without an impending doom of a crank/shaft collision.


However, all bearings seem to be smooth and tight. The valves looked like hell but the seats looked really good which I suspected since the valves were in decent spec.
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Old 01-26-2014, 12:33 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by mgorman View Post
I am in the middle of the same project with my 03 950 (re-badged to 04).

She's been ridden hard and put away wet too many times, swamped a couple times and ridden like it was designed to.

However, after 75k miles the cam chains stayed noisy beyond the initial start up so I decided to dig in. My piston/jug clearance was toast, I knew it wasn't good when I hooked an air compressor up to the spark plug hole and heard air flow like out the crank like vacuum in reverse. Pyndon has been helpful with getting mine back together and hooked me up with new jug/pistons from a much fresher motor, the jugs look like new, mine? Well, there was nearly a mm of clearance in them and the forward cylinder had deep scars. KTM is out of rear cylinders at this time.

I could screw the cam chain tensioner caps all the way in before making contact with the tensioner rail, I think she's plum worn out. One hydraulic tensioner has a lot of slop in it so I am replacing it. I think that it was allowing oil to blead back out causing too much slop at startup.

And the end of my cam chain tensioner decided to find a new home almost wiping out the pulse generator.





Then I found your same issue...



I did find out if you do not have the balancer shaft pressed all the way in, the crank will hit the bulge/lip/stop where the right bearing seats fully on the shaft so I can't see there being much lateral play without an impending doom of a crank/shaft collision.


However, all bearings seem to be smooth and tight. The valves looked like hell but the seats looked really good which I suspected since the valves were in decent spec.
To help your cam chain noise, be sure to check all the clearances on your oil pump, fit a new pressure release valve system and install a new gearbox lubrication rail in the gearbox while you are in the motor
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Old 02-08-2014, 02:48 PM   #118
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Hey I didn't know you had a 950 too....When you coming back to GJ? Me and you are in the same boat, I really hope I can move back at some point.

Thanks for the heads up on the oil tube. 1 dollar, my kind of KTM part

I knew the shift drum was an update and I considered changing it but I guess my problem is Im on a budget and the list of stuff I could/"should" replace is never ending: rods, pistons, cylinders, valves, oil pumps, etc, etc, etc. Any of which could fail, but any engine part, new or used, could fail. I would bet you there is some mention of the new 1190 engine with problems already. Granted the drum could fail, but I dont know if it's worth $120 for an updated shift drum. Hell its made it 75k+ already I wonder what the actual failure rate of the shift drum is?? 1-10, 1-100, 1-1000?

If it does break at some point, it is not generally catastrophic correct? Worst case you split the engine and replace?

I was reading a post in the HOW and it sounds like the right balancer shaft bearing should have some play. The inner race actually just drops in and is held on by a retaining clip on the back side. What do you guys think?

Ben, I am definitely making plans to return to GJ soon, hopefully to stay. I'm looking forward to doing the GJ-Granite Cr-Gateway-Moab-Kokopelli-GJ loop on the 950.
I decided to split the cases on the 950 to check out the bearings and replace the shift drum, and thought you might like to see the updated drum.
Here's the old drum, and you can see the channel wall is very thin here, where the shift fork engages 6th gear-



That is usually where a chunk breaks off, leaving no way to push the shift fork into 6th.
With the new drum, they eliminated the lower channel in that area, which didn't seem to have any purpose anyway, ( 7th gear?), leaving an enormous amount of material there-



I replaced almost all of the ball bearings in the cases, and the mains looked fine, so now I'm just about ready to button it back up-



Hope your project is going well.
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Old 02-15-2014, 05:34 AM   #119
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Nice job Ron! That is a really fun loop I did it this fall.

I got the cases back and am in the process of putting it all back together. The heads are cleaned up.








The cause for the oil leak from the base gasket is very clear......




One question, on the top of the pistons there is an arrow, I know the front piston the arrow points to the front and I think the back piston the arrow points to the back of the engine, correct?
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:11 AM   #120
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Correct, points to exhaust. Also visible by the size of the valve indents on most pistons.

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