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Old 01-31-2014, 12:17 PM   #166
ttpete
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Originally Posted by DaLunk View Post
Only partly...I knew a runner who due to the constraints of his job found that the most convenient time to run was after midnight. He wore his reflective gear but found that the drunks heading home from the bars had a tendency to drift his way all the time. After too many near misses he decided to dress in dark colors and wear no reflective gear and the problem went away. He decided it was his job to be invisible and stay out of their way. Of course, he had the option of leaving the road when a car approached, which is less than practical on a motorcycle and I would not advise it.
In my book, anyone who runs in the street after the bars close is nuts, no matter what he wears. In MI, it's called jaywalking and is illegal, night or day.
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Old 01-31-2014, 12:20 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by ttpete View Post
Bullshit.
You might want to watch the Natl. Geo. specials on the brain and check some of the other forums on this subject on the odd chance you might learn something. It can and does happen (e.g. check out stats on people who fixate on and run into police cars, fire trucks and ambulances). As for your proclamation of "bullshit", those things tend to come right back at you, bub!
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Old 01-31-2014, 12:41 PM   #168
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Nope. That would be the other things you should do whether you are wearing hi-viz or not.

Or are you saying that hi-viz turns into a disadvantage when in a blind spot?
Like I said before, high-viz only compliments good road craft, passively on its own it has no value.

As a professional driver for one of the worlds biggest transportation companies, we receive ongoing safety training in the classroom and do practical exercises. Its disturbing how much can be missed by even minor distractions. If seasoned professionals can fail miserably, imagine the average driver who has no care or concern for their situational awareness.

Anybody who believes high-viz has any more value than using their turn signals is asking for trouble. I can only hope fate and luck are kind to them.
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Old 01-31-2014, 12:49 PM   #169
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You might want to watch the Natl. Geo. specials on the brain and check some of the other forums on this subject on the odd chance you might learn something. It can and does happen (e.g. check out stats on people who fixate on and run into police cars, fire trucks and ambulances). As for your proclamation of "bullshit", those things tend to come right back at you, bub!
So, according to you, OSHA must also be full of shit because they require everyone who works near vehicles to wear hi-viz clothing.

Riders who constantly have problems with other drivers need to look inward and become more proficient because they are a part of their own problem. They put themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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Old 01-31-2014, 01:07 PM   #170
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So, according to you, OSHA must also be full of shit because they require everyone who works near vehicles to wear hi-viz clothing.

Riders who constantly have problems with other drivers need to look inward and become more proficient because they are a part of their own problem. They put themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Do you make it a habit of lying about what other people say or is it just a nascent bullying tactic? The brain can fixate on out-of-the-ordinary things to the detriment of vehicle (bike, car, plane, etc. ) control. It is well-known (search FAA pilot fixation studies). That you don't know or believe this isn't my problem but you seem to have made it yours.

EDIT NOTE: It is unfortunate that you didn't just ask a (civil) question instead of tossing out BS. That way, we could have had a (hopefully) thoughtful discussion about the thing.
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Old 01-31-2014, 02:10 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by windmill View Post
Like I said before, high-viz only compliments good road craft, passively on its own it has no value.

Are you saying that wearing hi-viz requires different roadcraft than going without hi-viz?

Cause if you should use good roadcraft all the time, then passively adding hi-viz helps. In other words, if I ride EXACTLY the same way you do, and I wear hi-viz colors while you wear urban camo, I will be more visible. That is passively wearing the hi-viz stuff. It doesn't mean you do anything else passively.

NOBODY ever says that they don't have to be careful when wearing hi-viz. Yet somehow that seems to be what a lot of people hear.
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Old 01-31-2014, 02:44 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by jmq3rd View Post
Are you saying that wearing hi-viz requires different roadcraft than going without hi-viz?

Cause if you should use good roadcraft all the time, then passively adding hi-viz helps. In other words, if I ride EXACTLY the same way you do, and I wear hi-viz colors while you wear urban camo, I will be more visible. That is passively wearing the hi-viz stuff. It doesn't mean you do anything else passively.

NOBODY ever says that they don't have to be careful when wearing hi-viz. Yet somehow that seems to be what a lot of people hear.
I'm often in environments where high-viz is mandatory yet people still get hurt as they just wear it because they have to.
Until folks understand the difference between just wearing it and activly using it, that won't change.

How many times have cliché one liners like "every bit helps" "it can't hurt" "another tool in the box" or "may help" been posted here?

Too many people believe simply wearing high-viz will make them safer, but its just not so, and its irresponsible to present it any other way.

I have nothing against visual enhancements and I do use them, I simply recognize the foolishness of expecting any particular result from doing so.
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Old 01-31-2014, 05:47 PM   #173
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I'm often in environments where high-viz is mandatory yet people still get hurt as they just wear it because they have to.
Yet amazingly less people get hurt than if nobody wore it. Was it advertised as an invincibility cloak?

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Originally Posted by windmill View Post
Until folks understand the difference between just wearing it and activly using it, that won't change.

Again, what is it that people need to do differently when they wear hi-viz vs when they wear regular gear?

If you want to talk about how people stupidly follow too close or drive in blind spots, that's fine. I agree those are bad behaviors. It has nothing to do with what color their gear is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by windmill View Post
How many times have cliché one liners like "every bit helps" "it can't hurt" "another tool in the box" or "may help" been posted here?
A lot. And coincidentally, those comments all indicate that hi-viz is only part of the equation, not that if you wear hi-viz you are magically impossible to overlook. If that is what they meant they would say it was the "only tool in the toolbox", or "will help".


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Too many people believe simply wearing high-viz will make them safer, but its just not so, and its irresponsible to present it any other way.
It does make them safer. Not safe, but safER. Not safer than you or safer than proper technique would make them, but safer than they would be if they rode exactly the same way without it.

If they change riding behavior at the same time they start wearing hi-viz, then there isn't really any way to even get anecdotal reports on if it works or not.
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:05 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by jmq3rd View Post
It does make them safer. Not safe, but safER. Not safer than you or safer than proper technique would make them, but safer than they would be if they rode exactly the same way without it.
I'm not sure if you're just being argumentative or if you're simply misunderstanding what I'm saying.

To be perfectly clear, I'm not saying using high-viz is bad or has no benefit, and I agree with you that high-viz will supplement good roadcraft for the positive.
What I'm saying is I totally disagree its reasonable to have expectations of any benefit by simply wearing it, or believing that all things being equal, wearing high-viz will make you safer, as those beliefs and expectations are based on unreliable assumptions of positive results.


High-viz has yielded such poor results in warehouse environments that many companies are fitting forklifts with blue safety spotlights. http://www.intellaliftparts.com/news...ety_light.aspx

One of the many reasons I choose responsible use of additional lighting, and reflective material over high-viz riding gear.
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:31 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by DaLunk View Post
Only partly...I knew a runner who due to the constraints of his job found that the most convenient time to run was after midnight. He wore his reflective gear but found that the drunks heading home from the bars had a tendency to drift his way all the time. After too many near misses he decided to dress in dark colors and wear no reflective gear and the problem went away. He decided it was his job to be invisible and stay out of their way. Of course, he had the option of leaving the road when a car approached, which is less than practical on a motorcycle and I would not advise it.
Last November I was out for a ride on my Tiger. It was 38 degrees and raining pretty hard. I was wearing my white helmet and tan Darien two-piece.

While on a perfectly strait 10 mile long section of road, I had multiple cars slowly drift towards me. I watched them, one by one, from a half mile away or more, as each of them 'locked on' and begin to drift....

Several of them actually crossed the center line just as they got close to me. They'd seen my headlights or my helmet and just stared at me in what I could only assume was disbelief, and "target fixated" all the way in. I was never in any real danger but that's because I'd picked up on the pattern and recognized it. No one expected to see a cycle out that time of year and certainly not in that weather. I anticipated this and dealt with it.

Is too much visibility a real problem? Maybe. Would I want to be less visible? No. Should people be aware of this? Absolutely.
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Old 02-01-2014, 03:23 AM   #176
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Wear what you like, but...

Myself - I'm betting that way more people avoid being hit by cars and trucks by wearing hi-viz and being seen, than get run over by drivers whose lizard-brain draws them to steer directly at the weirdly colored dork in the safety vest.

I don't think hi-viz is killing many people, but SMIDSY incidents are all too frequent.
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Old 02-01-2014, 07:42 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by windmill View Post

To be perfectly clear, I'm not saying using high-viz is bad or has no benefit, and I agree with you that high-viz will supplement good roadcraft for the positive.

Is there some other benefit besides being seen, that high-vis offers we aren't aware of?

It seems you are implying that it is safer.

In what positive way can wearing high-vis gear supplement good roadcraft?
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Old 02-01-2014, 07:52 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by windmill View Post
What I'm saying is I totally disagree its reasonable to have expectations of any benefit by simply wearing it, or believing that all things being equal, wearing high-viz will make you safer, as those beliefs and expectations are based on unreliable assumptions of positive results.



One of the many reasons I choose responsible use of additional lighting, and reflective material over high-viz riding gear.

So yet again, what are you saying people need to do other than "just wearing" it? How are we supposed to use it more effectively?

I always thought reflective material was hi-viz? Most of the hi-viz gear I see has more reflective material..
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Old 02-01-2014, 08:28 AM   #179
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My expectations wearing high-viz is that hopefully more people will be able to see me as opposed to wearing a darker color, I think that's a reasonable expectation. I do however continue to ride like they are going to pull out and do stupid things and I act accordingly.
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Old 02-01-2014, 08:34 AM   #180
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AS a land surveyor, I have been using Hi-Vis colors for nearly 50 years, if it didn't make a difference, I wouldn't still be using it, I would even go so far as saying it has saved my life at least one time or more.
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