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Old 01-30-2014, 09:05 PM   #136
JohnCW
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Originally Posted by joexr View Post
Most people just don't know they know it.
The problem is I just don't buy this explanation. Countless millions of people riding pushbikes and motorcycles and 99.99% of them not aware they are actively applying pressure to the bars with their hands. Doesn't do it for me, sorry.

I've quite deliberately rode trying as hard as I can to NOT apply any pressure to the bars. Just held my hands in a 'neutral' manner not applying force nor restricting the free movement of the bars with just a finger and thumb on the throttle. Found I could ride perfectly fine doing this. Go out and test it youself. This I believe is actually what the 99.99% of riders are doing.

I'm not for one second disputing that applying forward pressure to the inside bar as a conscious technique makes a motoycycle drop into a turn.
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Old 01-30-2014, 09:17 PM   #137
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This I believe is actually what the 99.99% of riders are doing.
This would certainly explain why so many riders ride off perfectly good roads.
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Old 01-30-2014, 09:49 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
I'm not for one second disputing that applying forward pressure to the inside bar as a conscious technique makes a motoycycle drop into a turn.
If you have to consciously counter steer you don't have much experience. To get people to understand and get a feel for countersteering , I tell them to ride a curvy road with their left hand off the bars.
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Old 01-30-2014, 09:57 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by joexr View Post
If you have to consciously counter steer you don't have much experience. To get people to understand and get a feel for countersteering , I tell them to ride a curvy road with their left hand off the bars.
Tell them to ride the same curvy road with both hands on the gas tank. You can corner, even fairly hard, but you can't do it quickly. Going from hard left to hard right in a fraction of a second isn't going to happen no matter how much you lean.
It's countersteering you use whether you know it or not.

Who knows or even thinks about how they balance while walking or running? It's the same thing.
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Old 01-30-2014, 11:08 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by tkent02 View Post
+ 1
That is until they HAVE to know it, and what to do with it! Which relates to the "riding like an old woman is not experience". I feel in large part the problem is when a rider gets into a situation where he/she conciously HAS to make the bike do exactly and precisely what is needed, and it doesn't happen because the rider is mostly unaware he/she knows what to do but doesn't do it.
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Old 01-30-2014, 11:21 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by joexr View Post
If you have to consciously counter steer you don't have much experience. To get people to understand and get a feel for countersteering , I tell them to ride a curvy road with their left hand off the bars.
If its something that every rider does unconsciously, and if someone thinks about it as a technique they must be inexperienced, then why do people spend thousands upon thousands of hours discussing/debating it. Doesn't actually sound like anything useful.

And yes, more than happy to ride anytime on a moderately curvy road with only my right hand on the throttle. I don't expect to be as fast as the better balance I'll have from having both hands on the bars, but I'll get along just fine. Any experienced rider can, don't take my word for it, do it on your next ride and them come tell me you tried it and can't. I say you can.
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Old 01-30-2014, 11:36 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by tkent02 View Post
Tell them to ride the same curvy road with both hands on the gas tank. You can corner, even fairly hard, but you can't do it quickly. Going from hard left to hard right in a fraction of a second isn't going to happen no matter how much you lean.
It's countersteering you use whether you know it or not.
Not quite sure what saying you can ride faster through the corners with your hands on the bars than on the tank actually proves. Yes, its true, who actually would dispute that? AND you'll go even faster by body shifting as well.

According to the 'counter-steering' purists you can't do what you're proposing as the only way to get the bike to turn by pressure to the bars. That's their whole position as I understand it - counter-steering is everything, body steering is a total myth. This 'theory' is massively flawed, and anyone who rides a bike should know it is. A bike having a heavy muffler on one side is enough to make it run of in that direction when you take your hands of the bars. The only way you can get a bike to run straight if you move your bum to one side of the seat is to lean your upper body the opposite way to counter balance.

Counter steering initiates a turn, shifting the center of gravity (body steering) initiates a turn. A technique that combines both will be by far the most effective. That is to body-shift the center of gravity into a position which naturally introduces counter-steering. That's how all modern professional racers ride.

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Old 01-31-2014, 01:54 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
Do a poll of when riders first heard of the term and concept "counter steering".

I'll kick it off, about 5 years ago. Started riding 45 years ago. Forty years without knowing what counter-steering was, or applying pressure to either side of the bars. Don't think I unique, riders for nearly 100 years, "just rode it".
The day before I bought my own first bike, 25 years ago. A mate put me on the back of his CB360 and said "watch"- left hand off the bar, right fingertip pushing forward on right bar. Then "Until you have have a handle on that, stay out of traffic".

12 years ago I started teaching basic riders; at that point, anyone who'd ridden 15+ years before hadn't heard of it. Now they come to us knowing about it, trying to learn it. Most of them "lean their body" without recognizing any inputs they're making on the bars; when they do try to make inputs, that big gyroscope up front resists.
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Old 01-31-2014, 02:03 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
According to the 'counter-steering' purists you can't do what you're proposing as the onlyway to get the bike to turn by pressure to the bars. That's their whole position as I understand it - counter-steering is everything, body steering is a total myth
You still haven't found the "No BS bike" videos, have you? sigh. I'm pretty sure you've heard of Keith Code, even down there. He's written a book or two on motorcycle riding, and made a couple of bucks coaching the odd fellow.

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Old 01-31-2014, 02:10 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Andyvh1959 View Post
I feel in large part the problem is when a rider gets into a situation where he/she conciously HAS to make the bike do exactly and precisely what is needed, and it doesn't happen because the rider is mostly unaware he/she knows what to do but doesn't do it.
Violent agreement. It's all good until the steering locks up, eh?
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Old 01-31-2014, 03:15 AM   #146
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You still haven't found the "No BS bike" videos, have you? sigh. I'm pretty sure you've heard of Keith Code, even down there. He's written a book or two on motorcycle riding, and made a couple of bucks coaching the odd fellow.

Yes, completely familiar with his thoughts, as well as those who have posted videos to disprove his claims. I appreciate you're no doubt also familiar with those disputing his claims, but for the benefit of the other readers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLLbr5-174A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuRlxpC9l-g

Like the people who have made these videos, I also believe Keith Code is incorrect in his claims. In fact parts of his video are so inaccurate that I believe he has little credibility. Compare his riders body control demonstration on a sports bike to what the guy in the video does on a heavy cruiser. There is no way Keith Codes claims can be reconciled with the video's, or lots of very experienced riders experience. He is hard line, what you see in the videos cannot be done, period. I fail to see how anyone who has ridden a pushbike or motorcycle cannot know you can control the bike without your hands on the bars at all, and quite reasonably ride one with your hands being quite passive on the bars. This is the fundamental reason so many people remain unconvinced. Simply trying to dismiss their point of view with such a lame explanation as "you just don't know your doing it" is pretty much an insult to their intelligence.

Why do you think the debate exists in the first place? It's only because Keith Code's 'theory' does not align with so many riders experience. Even the simple tight swerves to warm the tires is principally done through the hips (before you start I'm completely aware this technique is discredited).

Repeating myself for about the 20 time, just like the video no one is disputing that the bars are an effective way to control a motorcycle, and that active and deliberate counter-steering will force a motorcycle to drop into a corner.

But the notion that counter-steering is the be-all-end-all of getting a motorcycle to turn is IMO both incorrect, and counter productive. It is counter productive as it stops people from exploring all the other important elements. As an example haven't seen one single word on the line the OP may have taken entering the corner. Its all absolutely "target-fixation", no absolutely "failed to counter steer", and not even presented in some technique that may have been useful to a rider.

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Old 01-31-2014, 03:45 AM   #147
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Violent agreement. It's all good until the steering locks up, eh?
I was told earlier in this thread that front forks (particularly damper-rod type fitted to HD's, SV650, Vee-Stroms, BMW entry models, etc) can never lock up or become harsh forcing someone to run wide in a corner as their confidence completely disappeared. Anyhow, if it were to happen, it seems all you'd have to do is counter-steer through this frightening situation ........................ GOOD LUCK!!!

P.S. Here's a very simple video of how to get a bike around a corner in the most controlled and safer manner. Nothing new, but as so many responses in this thread align with what I see on the road, this basic technique doesn't seem to be widely appreciated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wYD9SSBBNQ


What's the difference between a corner on a public road and one at a track? Answer: public road is only half the width, and more things to seriously hurt you or worse if your get it wrong.

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Old 01-31-2014, 07:02 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
You've got it wrong. I don't go to the track because I have no need to push my bike that hard and would rather sptnd the time travelling and wandering on the bike.

All I am saying is that these people who say track days are necessary in order to become a good rider on the street are full of it. Nothing against going to the track if that floats your boat. Go for it! Have fun! But don't get all high and mighty and say that it is the only way to become a good rider. Because it is not, and it sends the wrong message. If you want to be a good street rider, practice on the street. If you want to beome a good track guy, practice on the track.
The difference is, those of us that actually have experience know what riding on the track offers us knowledge and skill wise and how that actually translates to our everyday riding. Those of you without offer meaningless ad homeniems.
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Old 01-31-2014, 07:03 AM   #149
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This would certainly explain why so many riders ride off perfectly good roads.
Yup.
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:03 AM   #150
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Counter steering is a myth, concocted by money hungry bastiges eager to take your money for instructional videos, books, manuals, track schools, safety courses, etc. And kept alive by worthless, idiotic racers the world over.

In cahoot with those low lifes are people that promote, push and even legislate the requirement to rear so call "safety gear". It is an outrage I say!

Everybody with an IQ above 3 knows that when you get on a bike, you only have to suggest what you want it to do, and bingo!, it knows.

All those pesky low sides and high sides and slides down the highway are simply bad karma. It would have have happened if you were just walking.

Case in point: As I was walking into my kitchen this morning to get coffee, my sneakers just couldn't make the turn, and I high sided into the table.

Whoa, my brain hurts. Do I need new sneakers, or did I lace them too tight, inhibiting their ability to turn?
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