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Old 01-31-2014, 09:37 AM   #151
Paebr332
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Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
But the notion that counter-steering is the be-all-end-all of getting a motorcycle to turn is IMO both incorrect, and counter productive. It is counter productive as it stops people from exploring all the other important elements. As an example haven't seen one single word on the line the OP may have taken entering the corner. Its all absolutely "target-fixation", no absolutely "failed to counter steer", and not even presented in some technique that may have been useful to a rider.
Your denigration of countersteering is simply baffling. It is how a two-wheeled vehicle turns. That is a fact of physics. Even in those examples where people are turning a bike via weight shifting they are doing this by forcing the bike to countersteer. Watch the front wheel and you will see it ALWAYS is going opposite the turn (countersteering) except at very low speeds.

Once again the simple fact that one can slowly and fairly imprecisely turn a bike via weight transfer does NOTHING to counter the physics of how the bike is turning. Using the handlebars to initiate and control the countersteering input is quicker and more precise than shifting your weight. The gyroscopic force from wheel rotation means that as the bike goes faster it takes more force to get the wheel to turn off the axis of travel. There is also greater centrigual force being applied to the combined mass of the bike and rider at those higher speeds. The only way to apply more force via weight shifting is to move your body's center of gravity farther to the inside of the turn the faster you go. Using the handlebars means you can apply more force by pushing/pulling harder.

Here is a simple test you can do yourself. Detach your handlebars from the triple tree on YOUR bike. Zip tie them to the top of your frame just behind the steering stem. You will still be able to work the controls, but you will not be able to initiate countersteering via the handlebars. Now go ride in traffic. After all, you clearly state that countersteering as "the be-all-end-all of getting a motorcycle to turn is IMO... incorrect." You have stated unequivocally that Keith Code is a fraud, so prove him wrong not by watching some videos on Youtube, but by first hand experience. After all we have all seen videos on the internet that turn out to be fraudulent or not quite what they were stated to be.

Oh, be sure to have someone shoot video of your ride and post the unedited video online. You'll be an internet star. Easy-peasy lemon squeezy.

Paebr332 screwed with this post 01-31-2014 at 09:42 AM
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:46 AM   #152
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Laugh

Ron White Sez, "you can't fix stupid". Now where is that cigar smoking emote???
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Old 01-31-2014, 10:21 AM   #153
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The problem is I just don't buy this explanation. Countless millions of people riding pushbikes and motorcycles and 99.99% of them not aware they are actively applying pressure to the bars with their hands. Doesn't do it for me, sorry.

I've quite deliberately rode trying as hard as I can to NOT apply any pressure to the bars. Just held my hands in a 'neutral' manner not applying force nor restricting the free movement of the bars with just a finger and thumb on the throttle. Found I could ride perfectly fine doing this. Go out and test it youself. This I believe is actually what the 99.99% of riders are doing.

I'm not for one second disputing that applying forward pressure to the inside bar as a conscious technique makes a motoycycle drop into a turn.
Umm...Why not just use a throttle lock in an open and empty area, then try to execute a quick avoidance swerve, or two or three in quick succession, without touching the bars? Touching the bars, even with a single pinky nail, is cheating.

Post unedited video. We might ALL learn something.

Counter-steering, even without hanging off or whatever, provides IMMEDIATE and EFFICIENT steering response, and it can be repeated over and over, in quick succession, to lesser or greater degree.

Are you fully aware of ALL of your biomechanics when walking, running, swimming, jumping, breathing, swinging a golf club, etc.? I'm not, but I'd bet that a well-trained coach that IS could help me perform better at any of these.

I don't doubt that one can get a bike to turn somewhat by other methods, but it's not going to be nearly as precise, efficient, immediate, or quickly repeatable as counter-steering. Coupling counter-steering with leaning/weighting probably is the best, but I'm thinking that the main benefit of hanging off is just a reduced lean angle of the bike, and therefore, less tendency to drag bike parts.
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Old 01-31-2014, 11:07 AM   #154
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Ride a bicyle and do turns about 10MPH with and without your knee out and tell me how the knee helps. It'll turn better knee out. I say bicycle because it's more pronounced by the lighter weight.
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Old 01-31-2014, 01:30 PM   #155
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Ride a bicyle and do turns about 10MPH with and without your knee out and tell me how the knee helps. It'll turn better knee out. I say bicycle because it's more pronounced by the lighter weight.
Weave relatively-tight cones at around 20MPH on a bicycle, using just your knee out, with your hands completely off the bars. Mimic the tightness of slalom-style or GS-style alpine-skiing turns, not the looseness of downhill.

Then try it again with your knees comfortably in and just counter-steering, while keeping yourself balanced on the bike. Push left, look left, go left. Push right, look right, go right.
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Old 01-31-2014, 01:30 PM   #156
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Still winter I guess, counter steering arguments!

It's silly to say that weight shift has little to no effect. Anyone that has ridden with no hands on the bars can easily see that moving weight around can cause the bike to turn. Anyone really paying attention would see that the bike is counter steering itself in this scenario. Anyone that has made quick maneuvers on the bike will know that actively counter steering is the only way to make quick maneuvers. Anyone trying to go fast will know that combining counter steering and weight transfer is the best method.

If you really want to rank importance of course counter steering should be taught first. But to ignore body position and claim it has little or no effect is crazy. Anyone that has spun around in an office chair can see this, the closer the mass is to the center of rotation the faster you spin. Keeping the mass to the inside of the turn makes the bike turn with much less effort. It is not just about ground clearance (although that is a benifit) at the same speed you are pulling less lateral G's the closer the the center of rotation around a turn.
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Old 01-31-2014, 01:36 PM   #157
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You can't shift your weight without the bike shifting opposite, unless you are levering against air.
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Old 01-31-2014, 02:12 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by scootrboi View Post
You can't shift your weight without the bike shifting opposite, unless you are levering against air.
In a straight line sure, but we are turning here no? You are levering against lateral G forces.

Hmm but now as I contemplate it that might not be correct. The farther you hang off the less lean required of the bike, so for a given speed and turn radius the overall center of gravity is the primary thing turning the bike not the lean angle.

Dammnit come on spring!
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Old 01-31-2014, 02:38 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by fast1075 View Post
Case in point: As I was walking into my kitchen this morning to get coffee, my sneakers just couldn't make the turn, and I high sided into the table.
Happened to a friend of mine a couple years ago. He was headed back to the kitchen for another bottle of whisky in his socks and had to lay 'er down when he ran out of counter to steer with.
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Old 01-31-2014, 02:41 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Flo_Evans View Post
In a straight line sure, but we are turning here no? You are levering against lateral G forces.

Hmm but now as I contemplate it that might not be correct. The farther you hang off the less lean required of the bike, so for a given speed and turn radius the overall center of gravity is the primary thing turning the bike not the lean angle.

Dammnit come on spring!
If you are trying to initiate a turn, then you are not turning. Shift your weight and the bike has to move to balance that. You can't change your combined center of mass without something to pull on or push against.
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Old 01-31-2014, 02:45 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by scootrboi View Post
If you are trying to initiate a turn, then you are not turning. Shift your weight and the bike has to move to balance that. You can't change your combined center of mass without something to pull on or push against.

For the bike to lean, the tire deforms a bit, plus at speed the bike is to a small degree stabilized by the airflow on each side. Probably not enough to completely offset the rider leaning, but you would be pushing against more than just the bike's center of gravity.
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Old 01-31-2014, 03:48 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by jmq3rd View Post
For the bike to lean, the tire deforms a bit, plus at speed the bike is to a small degree stabilized by the airflow on each side. Probably not enough to completely offset the rider leaning, but you would be pushing against more than just the bike's center of gravity.
I think I understand what Scootrboi is alluding to. With the bike balancing on the tires and going in a straight line, if you maintain straight and lean the body to the left the bike will lean to the right to keep things balanced.

Equal and opposite reaction and all that rot.

If this is the case, he's spot on.
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Old 01-31-2014, 03:50 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by dwoodward View Post
Happened to a friend of mine a couple years ago. He was headed back to the kitchen for another bottle of whisky in his socks and had to lay 'er down when he ran out of counter to steer with.
No, you guys...Sneakers are more capable than 90% of the people wearing them. If one high-sided, it wasn't the sneakers. It was the wearer. If one low-sided, well...maybe it was the sneakers...or the counter...or both.
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Old 01-31-2014, 05:15 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Flo_Evans View Post
Still winter I guess, counter steering arguments!

It's silly to say that weight shift has little to no effect. Anyone that has ridden with no hands on the bars can easily see that moving weight around can cause the bike to turn. Anyone really paying attention would see that the bike is counter steering itself in this scenario. Anyone that has made quick maneuvers on the bike will know that actively counter steering is the only way to make quick maneuvers. Anyone trying to go fast will know that combining counter steering and weight transfer is the best method.

If you really want to rank importance of course counter steering should be taught first. But to ignore body position and claim it has little or no effect is crazy. Anyone that has spun around in an office chair can see this, the closer the mass is to the center of rotation the faster you spin. Keeping the mass to the inside of the turn makes the bike turn with much less effort. It is not just about ground clearance (although that is a benifit) at the same speed you are pulling less lateral G's the closer the the center of rotation around a turn.
Hi FE,
++++++ 100

You've summed it up very well, and that's all I've been trying to say. I'm totally amazed that anyone who is seriously into bikes could dispute it. I do thrust that some of the 'silent' readers will have picked up something useful from the discussion and give more though to their body position in a turn, and in doing so be far less likely to get into trouble. It was pleasing to see someone earlier in the thread give it a go, and be amazed how effective it was. Like riding a totally different bike was I believe how he put it.

With a lot of though on this subject, if someone asked me the single most important thing to turn a bike at speed, I'd now actually answer CONFIDENCE. Confidence brought about by good technique practiced repeatedly, and confidence in the bike to perform well and predictably. The instant the rider looses confidence in a turn he/she is in trouble.

It's a pity that this one aspect always takes over any discussion on turning. There are so many other aspects worth discussing that make a bike turn well e.g. entry line, rebound and compression settings, front spring weights, etc. but as Thomas says "that's another story".

Cheers,

JohnCW screwed with this post 01-31-2014 at 05:41 PM
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Old 01-31-2014, 05:30 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
I think I understand what Scootrboi is alluding to. With the bike balancing on the tires and going in a straight line, if you maintain straight and lean the body to the left the bike will lean to the right to keep things balanced.

Equal and opposite reaction and all that rot.

If this is the case, he's spot on.

Almost spot on. Some of that energy is absorbed by other things than the bike leaning the other way. These other things don't add up to much, but they do exist.

Just nits to be picked. Equal and opposite does not mean there is only one offsetting reaction.
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