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Old 01-31-2014, 05:49 PM   #166
markk53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateJohn View Post
We had an accident along those lines with the vintage motorcycle club of which I eventually became el Presidente. Moral of the story the ride leader on that ride began preaching countersteering. Try it. It takes some practice, but in an emergency situation you can firmly control that bike to the point where the pegs or the cylinder heads (in the case of a BMW) are on the ground.

Should have preached "don't be a candy-ass, LEAN!"

My bet is 99% know about countersteering, but don't trust leaning the bike into a corner, thinking the tires won't hold. So rather than lowside, which they likely wouldn't, they crash going off the road. Brilliant!

It takes some guts to simply lean in (or whatever) when it seems the bike won't go any further. Odds are it will. That was the main take-away from the Keith Code Superbike School that my friends took. When in doubt - lean in further. The tires are better than you are.

So my advice - Grow some grapes, when in doubt turn in harder.
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Old 01-31-2014, 06:04 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
Should have preached "don't be a candy-ass, LEAN!"

My bet is 99% know about countersteering, but don't trust leaning the bike into a corner, thinking the tires won't hold. So rather than lowside, which they likely wouldn't, they crash going off the road. Brilliant!

It takes some guts to simply lean in (or whatever) when it seems the bike won't go any further. Odds are it will. That was the main take-away from the Keith Code Superbike School that my friends took. When in doubt - lean in further. The tires are better than you are.

So my advice - Grow some grapes, when in doubt turn in harder.
+1
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Old 01-31-2014, 06:31 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Paebr332 View Post
Your denigration of countersteering is simply baffling. After all, you clearly state that countersteering as "the be-all-end-all of getting a motorcycle to turn is IMO... incorrect." You have stated unequivocally that Keith Code is a fraud, so prove him wrong not by watching some videos on Youtube, but by first hand experience. .
I get the impression that you actually haven't read my posts, and that perhaps is the reason your 'baffled'. In just about every one of my posts I deliberately included a statement like conscious input to the bars is an effective way to get a bike to drop into a turn. These were consciously added for the sole reason of 'heading off' posts similar to yours. Obviously it failed.

Let me give the 'counter-steering' high priests a tip. You would be far better of having 3 defined terms to remove all the confusion surrounding the subject. I'll make some suggestions:

1. Steering dynamics - all the things that make a motorcycle turn.

2. Handle bar direction - the direction the bars move when cornering. Can be initiated by a number of factors.

3. Counter-steering - deliberate and conscious input to the bars by the rider

Until such time as you stop using a single term to cover 3 different but related concepts, which results in people have different interpretations of what the term "counter steering" means, these endless rather unproductive discussions will continue.

Regarding Keith Code, what I said was "In fact parts of his video are so inaccurate that I believe he has little credibility. You interpret this as "You have stated unequivocally that Keith Code is a fraud". Interesting turn of phrase. I don't have any first hand experience of the guy, only his No BS video, and another video on setting suspension sag. Both I believe contain significant important errors that I would expect an 'expert' not to make. Perhaps the thoughts of this guy who does have experience with Keith may be more accurate.

http://www.svrider.com/articles/2001apr_code.htm
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Old 01-31-2014, 07:05 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
Should have preached "don't be a candy-ass, LEAN!"

My bet is 99% know about countersteering, but don't trust leaning the bike into a corner, thinking the tires won't hold. So rather than lowside, which they likely wouldn't, they crash going off the road. Brilliant!

It takes some guts to simply lean in (or whatever) when it seems the bike won't go any further. Odds are it will. That was the main take-away from the Keith Code Superbike School that my friends took. When in doubt - lean in further. The tires are better than you are.

So my advice - Grow some grapes, when in doubt turn in harder.
Maybe on a clean track, with sticky sportbike rubber. On a public road, riding on tires that aren't warm sportbike rubber, sometimes the tires WON'T hold, and one may have to be better/luckier than their tires in those conditions.
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:31 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Albie View Post
...For street riding you weight the inside peg, for dirt riding you weight the outside peg. ...
I only ride on the street and weighting the inside peg is counter intuitive to me so could someone explain what the theory is behind the above advice? I assume it is to help the bike lean over further but I'm not sure and I like to understand what I'm doing.

I'm a slow rider and don't move my bum off the seat to shift my weight but on tighter bends I move my inside shoulder forward and slightly outward towards the mirror. I don't consciously move my weight on the pegs but if anything I tend to weight the outside peg.

I've had a couple of "oh shit' moments when I've entered a corner a bit faster than was comfortable (for me). I've always known my bike (any bike probably) is more capable than me so forcing myself to keep my head up and look through the corner has kept me out of the weeds.
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Old 01-31-2014, 10:40 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Lep View Post
I only ride on the street and weighting the inside peg is counter intuitive to me so could someone explain what the theory is behind the above advice? I assume it is to help the bike lean over further but I'm not sure and I like to understand what I'm doing.

I'm a slow rider and don't move my bum off the seat to shift my weight but on tighter bends I move my inside shoulder forward and slightly outward towards the mirror. I don't consciously move my weight on the pegs but if anything I tend to weight the outside peg.

I've had a couple of "oh shit' moments when I've entered a corner a bit faster than was comfortable (for me). I've always known my bike (any bike probably) is more capable than me so forcing myself to keep my head up and look through the corner has kept me out of the weeds.
I grew up riding dirt, so weighting the outside peg is what comes natural to me too.

The only reason I can see to weight the inside peg is to promote wheel slip on the rear. Maybe that is something the racers find helps with turning.
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Old 02-01-2014, 02:38 AM   #172
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After your first track day, you feel like god, and the street looks different.

After your third, you talk about what you did right, and the street looks different again.

After your tenth, you talk about what you did wrong, and the street looks like a big PLP zone, which you gladly take advantage of, because you keep falling over in the pits.
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Old 02-01-2014, 03:26 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Kommando View Post
Maybe on a clean track, with sticky sportbike rubber. On a public road, riding on tires that aren't warm sportbike rubber, sometimes the tires WON'T hold, and one may have to be better/luckier than their tires in those conditions.
No one can "teach" while taking into account every conceivable situation.
What you are doing is finding the exception to prove the generality untrue.
In general conditions the vast majority are riding with a huge margin of reserve grip.
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Old 02-01-2014, 03:36 AM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
I get the impression that you actually haven't read my posts, and that perhaps is the reason your 'baffled'. In just about every one of my posts I deliberately included a statement like conscious input to the bars is an effective way to get a bike to drop into a turn. These were consciously added for the sole reason of 'heading off' posts similar to yours. Obviously it failed.

Let me give the 'counter-steering' high priests a tip. You would be far better of having 3 defined terms to remove all the confusion surrounding the subject. I'll make some suggestions:

1. Steering dynamics - all the things that make a motorcycle turn.

2. Handle bar direction - the direction the bars move when cornering. Can be initiated by a number of factors.



3. Counter-steering - deliberate and conscious input to the bars by the rider

Until such time as you stop using a single term to cover 3 different but related concepts, which results in people have different interpretations of what the term "counter steering" means, these endless rather unproductive discussions will continue.

Regarding Keith Code, what I said was "In fact parts of his video are so inaccurate that I believe he has little credibility. You interpret this as "You have stated unequivocally that Keith Code is a fraud". Interesting turn of phrase. I don't have any first hand experience of the guy, only his No BS video, and another video on setting suspension sag. Both I believe contain significant important errors that I would expect an 'expert' not to make. Perhaps the thoughts of this guy who does have experience with Keith may be more accurate.

http://www.svrider.com/articles/2001apr_code.htm
Those 3 terms are the same, the fact remains that despite the assistance that various moves might have in helping cornering it cannot be achieved successfully without countersteering. What K Code and others try to say is that the countersteer is done unconciously but can be added to with conscious input as well.
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Old 02-01-2014, 04:08 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
I grew up riding dirt, so weighting the outside peg is what comes natural to me too.
Two reasons to weight the pegs in a turn on dirt. Motocrossers, racers, etc., going fast, weighting the outside peg gets the tire to dig in while sliding, improves traction and thus improves cornering. Going slow, more like trail riding, standing up, picking a zig zag line through crooked terrain, if you stand on the left peg ( or just bend your right knee) the bike goes left, if you put more weight on the right peg the bike goes right. The slower the speed the better this works. If used in conjunction with countersteering the handlebars you can get extremely quick changes in direction even on super slippery ground.

Much easier to keep the bike centered on a 5 inch wide trail this way.
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Old 02-01-2014, 04:11 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by omeoxlv View Post
Those 3 terms are the same, the fact remains that despite the assistance that various moves might have in helping cornering it cannot be achieved successfully without countersteering. What K Code and others try to say is that the countersteer is done unconciously but can be added to with conscious input as well.
And here was me thinking foolishly we might actually be making some progress.................
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Old 02-01-2014, 09:30 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by tkent02 View Post
Two reasons to weight the pegs in a turn on dirt. Motocrossers, racers, etc., going fast, weighting the outside peg gets the tire to dig in while sliding, improves traction and thus improves cornering. Going slow, more like trail riding, standing up, picking a zig zag line through crooked terrain, if you stand on the left peg ( or just bend your right knee) the bike goes left, if you put more weight on the right peg the bike goes right. The slower the speed the better this works. If used in conjunction with countersteering the handlebars you can get extremely quick changes in direction even on super slippery ground.

Much easier to keep the bike centered on a 5 inch wide trail this way.

Oh, gee, after only four decades or so of fast dirt riding, I'm glad you came along and filled in all the blanks.

This thread is about turns. All I was saying is the same as you did, only I tried to do so in fewer words (unusual for me).

When riding dirt it is rarely beneficial to weight the inside peg. That is what leads to lost traction in turns and on side grades. I learned early on to put the weight on the side you don't want the back wheel to go.

The same basic principles of force in regard to traction also apply in street riding, but the better traction and greater weight of the bike minimizes the effect considerably. Out of habit, I tend toward weighting the outside peg, (or being prepared to) and this has paid off on the street on occasion when conditions merit it.

There, you went and made me get all verbose and shit.
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MotoTex screwed with this post 02-01-2014 at 09:37 AM
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Old 02-01-2014, 09:37 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by omeoxlv View Post
No one can "teach" while taking into account every conceivable situation.
What you are doing is finding the exception to prove the generality untrue.
In general conditions the vast majority are riding with a huge margin of reserve grip.
Sure, one can teach while taking into account the "unaccountable". I have taught quite a bit without making generalizations and while pointing out that there may be exceptions. People probably shouldn't make generalizations if they don't want them pointed out as sometimes being incorrect. This site is Advrider, not Trackrider. Your traction may vary.
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Kommando screwed with this post 02-01-2014 at 09:43 AM
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Old 02-01-2014, 09:42 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Kommando View Post
People probably shouldn't make generalizations if they don't want them pointed out as sometimes being incorrect. This site is Advrider, not Trackrider. Traction may vary.
What he said.

I rarely ride in ideal conditions. In fact I look to ride mostly in less than ideal conditions, on purpose. It is my kind of fun. Training for ideal conditions would not benefit my riding style and doing so and believing it did would probably demonstrate to me the folly of that in short order.

YMMV
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Old 02-01-2014, 10:02 AM   #180
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In the post that I was responding to of his, Markk53 even somewhat addressed that there might be exceptions. He used terms like "odds are", and "likely". I expanded on that by providing possible specifics.
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