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Old 02-18-2014, 08:27 AM   #256
EvilGilligan
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sage advice saved my life 1000x

Quote:
Originally Posted by ragtoplvr View Post
here is what I say. By the time you realize you are too hot for a corner, the outcome is already determined. All you can do is make it worse. You can not always make it better. So no fear, lean the bike, hang off to the inside if you can, at least lean to the inside. If you do not make it, you were never going to make it. If you do, it is because you did not make it worse.

Rod
I was "taught" how to ride by guys who race (OK, fed to the sharks and survived more like) and they told me three things:
1. YOU are the problem, the bike can do amazing things
2. Saw off your rear brake pedal for the fist year of riding, it'll just get you killed
3. Look up the turn, trust the bike, and lean harder
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Old 02-18-2014, 08:46 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by EvilGilligan View Post
counter steer vs weight shift ... christ. The physics of how a two wheeled vehicle turns are well understood whether the bag of meat piloting it understands it or not. Whether you wiggle yer fat ass from one side to the other (and induce a counter steer that you're not aware of) or whether you're yanking our pushing on your bars the net dynamics of the vehicle are the same.

The guys who argue against "active counter steering" are also the same ones who stomp the rear brake leaving a perfectly straight skid mark into the stump that they target fixated on.
This isn't about counter steering, is it?

I thought it was about making a sharp corner, which of course involves counter steering.
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Old 02-18-2014, 09:15 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by tkent02 View Post
This isn't about counter steering, is it?

I thought it was about making a sharp corner, which of course involves counter steering.
Throwing down the gauntlet one more time.
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Old 02-18-2014, 09:28 AM   #259
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Throwing down the gauntlet one more time.
Nah, I couldn't care less if some riders don't know how they go around corners.
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Old 02-18-2014, 03:13 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by EvilGilligan View Post
counter steer vs weight shift ... Whether you wiggle yer fat ass from one side to the other (and induce a counter steer that you're not aware of) or whether you're yanking our pushing on your bars the net dynamics of the vehicle are the same.
So you'd advise every professional motorcycle racer in the world to stop moving their fat asses from side in corners and just sit straight on the bike like they did pre 1970's as they can achieve exactly the same result by other means?

You may be right, perhaps is just showing off and this 'bag of meat' (to use your expression) may go better and save a lot of energy if he followed your advice.


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Old 02-18-2014, 03:54 PM   #261
ragtoplvr
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I remember may years ago, belonging to a local racing club, and taking the rookie class. I never raced though, it gave me a honest assesment of my sorry potential. If was fun.. I did flag corners though, the best way to watch a race. I saw a bike spit off the rider, and then straighten up and coast to an inglorious stop more than once. This strongly indicates the rider was the issue. First, do not make it worse. Then do not quit flying the plane.

Rod
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Old 02-18-2014, 09:07 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
So you'd advise every professional motorcycle racer in the world to stop moving their fat asses from side in corners and just sit straight on the bike like they did pre 1970's as they can achieve exactly the same result by other means?

You may be right, perhaps is just showing off and this 'bag of meat' (to use your expression) may go better and save a lot of energy if he followed your advice.

Countersteering and leaning are orthogonal; each is independent of the other. I don't have to lean to countersteer, and I don't have to countersteer to lean.

I do have to countersteer to TURN, however. Even if I precipitated a turn by leaning the bike via weight shifting. What leaning one's body does for a rider is that it shifts the center of gravity to outside of the bike, decreasing the need to lean the bike (by increasing the lean of the rider). When you're close to the limits of lean on a bike, shifting the rider's weight to the inside of the turn lets you 'straighten' the bike back up while maintaining the same turn radius (turn the front wheel to the inside of the turn... your inside weight prevents the bike from 'standing up') . So, leaning while counter steering can let me turn sharper-radius curves with less bike lean... allowing me to make turns I might not otherwise be able to make due to hard parts clearance. I've also found leaning to help when I'm on wet roads, since I'm leaning less and thus putting less 'sideways Gs' on the bike.

Most riders instinctively 'counter-lean'; they lean opposite the way they're turning, requiring more bike lean and pushing closer to where some hard part is going to hit and lever their rear wheel... and if that happens it's all over.
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Old 02-19-2014, 08:45 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by ObiJohn View Post
Countersteering and leaning are orthogonal; each is independent of the other. I don't have to lean to countersteer, and I don't have to countersteer to lean.

I do have to countersteer to TURN, however. ...
Well put!

So many seem to think that leaning is a way to turn other than countersteering.

It is just a less effective way to initiate a turn, which must include countersteering. Else, you would be leaning and still going straight.

To answer JohnCW's question: "So you'd advise every professional motorcycle racer in the world to stop moving their fat asses from side in corners and just sit straight on the bike like they did pre 1970's as they can achieve exactly the same result by other means?"

I would advise professional racers to stop moving their fat asses to the side in corners, when they are riding on the street. In this environment being seated straighter on the saddle allows a street rider to respond to deltas in the environment more effectively. The changing environmental factors seen while street riding are much less likely to be encountered on the track.

Being leaned over at max angle and the rider all slung off the side of the motorcycle as shown in the track photo can significantly limit one's ability to respond to an errant motorist, debris, etc. on the public roadway. In most miles traveled on public roads this would be an inappropriate technique for the circumstances.
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Old 02-19-2014, 08:53 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
Well put!

So many seem to think that leaning is a way to turn other than countersteering.

It is just a less effective way to initiate a turn, which must include countersteering. Else, you would be leaning and still going straight.

To answer JohnCW's question: "So you'd advise every professional motorcycle racer in the world to stop moving their fat asses from side in corners and just sit straight on the bike like they did pre 1970's as they can achieve exactly the same result by other means?"

I would advise professional racers to stop moving their fat asses to the side in corners, when they are riding on the street. In this environment being seated straighter on the saddle allows a street rider to respond to deltas in the environment more effectively. The changing environmental factors seen while street riding are much less likely to be encountered on the track.

Being leaned over at max angle and the rider all slung off the side of the motorcycle as shown in the track photo can significantly limit one's ability to respond to an errant motorist, debris, etc. on the public roadway. In most miles traveled on public roads this would be an inappropriate technique for the circumstances.
Having that skill in your bag of tricks could certainly get you around the corner, which is what this thread is about. Hanging one's ass off the side will have a huge influence on whether or not you succesfully make the turn. Somehow I doubt if it's really the professional racers that are having problems with the corners.
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Old 02-19-2014, 11:04 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
Well put!
I would advise professional racers to stop moving their fat asses to the side in corners, when they are riding on the street. In this environment being seated straighter on the saddle allows a street rider to respond to deltas in the environment more effectively. The changing environmental factors seen while street riding are much less likely to be encountered on the track.

Being leaned over at max angle and the rider all slung off the side of the motorcycle as shown in the track photo can significantly limit one's ability to respond to an errant motorist, debris, etc. on the public roadway. In most miles traveled on public roads this would be an inappropriate technique for the circumstances.
Couldn't disagree more. The OP ended up running of the road and into a field. Had he set himself in the best possible riding position to be able to handle the unknown 'environmental factors' then he may have made the corner. Anyone who riders moving their body in corners and keeping the bike more upright knows it is a far safer way to ride. Not only are you less likely to drag a peg, have more traction, but the ability to change a line in a corner in response to "changing environmental factors" e.g an unexpected tightening radius turn is so much better. I think anyone recommending against it simple hasn't tried it. They can't have because they'd know how effective the technique is.

When I posted a picture of perhaps of someone who may go on to become the greatest motorcycle racer of all time (history will judge this comment) riding a factory MotoGP bike for no other purpose than to demonstrate a point that the best in the world shift their body for a very good reason, I just knew there would be someone would say you shouldn't ride like Marc Marquez on a MotoGP bike on the road. Why not, I ride around every corner with my bum and elbow dragging the road, doesn't everybody? Seriously, you must think I'm a complete idiot.

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Old 02-19-2014, 11:33 AM   #266
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Couldn't disagree more. The OP ended up running of the road and into a field. Had he set himself in the best possible riding position to be able to handle the unknown 'environmental factors' then he may have made the corner. Anyone who riders moving their body in corners and keeping the bike more upright knows it is a far safer way to ride. Not only are you less likely to drag a peg, have more traction, but the ability to change a line in a corner in response to "changing environmental factors" e.g an unexpected tightening radius turn is so much better. I think anyone recommending against it simple hasn't tried it. They can't have because they'd know how effective the technique is.

When I posted a picture of perhaps of someone who may go on to become the greatest motorcycle racer of all time (history will judge this comment) riding a factory MotoGP bike for no other purpose than to demonstrate a point that the best in the world shift their body for a very good reason, I just knew there would be someone would say you shouldn't ride like Marc Marquez on a MotoGP bike on the road. Why not, I ride around every corner with my bum and elbow dragging the road, doesn't everybody? Seriously, you must think I'm a complete idiot.
Going as fast as this skill allows on the street would be idiotic. Having the skill to fall back on if you fuck up is not.
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Old 02-19-2014, 01:04 PM   #267
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Going as fast as this skill allows on the street would be idiotic. Having the skill to fall back on if you fuck up is not.
That is exactly my point.

This technique CAN be used beneficially, but MOST street turns and curves ridden on a DAILY basis will NOT benefit from hanging off MOST OF THE TIME.

SOME, SPECIFIC curves, ridden repeatedly to the point that familiarity allows it WILL benefit from such techniques. This is what makes track time different from NORMAL street riding.

JohnCW isn't an idiot, he simply forgets that most of his riding does not employ this technique in 90% or more curves ridden.

Sure, it may have helped in the scenario described, but I'm saying that street riders shouldn't plan on using such a technique except in unique circumstances where it is either warranted (familiar play curve) or the only other choice would lead to an off the road excursion.

This in no way implies that having the technique in one's toolbox isn't a boon to riding overall. Only that the opportunities to employ it will be scarce in comparison to the lion's share of turns made on a bike.
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Old 02-19-2014, 03:20 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
That is exactly my point.

This technique CAN be used beneficially, but MOST street turns and curves ridden on a DAILY basis will NOT benefit from hanging off MOST OF THE TIME.

SOME, SPECIFIC curves, ridden repeatedly to the point that familiarity allows it WILL benefit from such techniques. This is what makes track time different from NORMAL street riding.

JohnCW isn't an idiot, he simply forgets that most of his riding does not employ this technique in 90% or more curves ridden.

Sure, it may have helped in the scenario described, but I'm saying that street riders shouldn't plan on using such a technique except in unique circumstances where it is either warranted (familiar play curve) or the only other choice would lead to an off the road excursion.

This in no way implies that having the technique in one's toolbox isn't a boon to riding overall. Only that the opportunities to employ it will be scarce in comparison to the lion's share of turns made on a bike.
Greatly appreciate it if you could point out where I even implied someone should hang of the bike in every corner no matter what the circumstances.

Even a GP racer does not hang of the bike in every corner when going flat out. There are no shortage of tracks with doglegs where they just maintain their tuck position through the slight curve. Every corner that is being approached is being assessed by the rider in terms of current speed, required braking, line, body shift, etc, etc, before its arrive at. This is exactly how it should also be on the road. If people are riding to work in peak hour traffic, they will naturally use their current speed in any mental assessment of the approaching corner. Same deal if you riding down the interstate. Even GP riders don't hang of the bike when they are riding around after the checkered flag.

We are talking about the millions of riders with sports bikes or standards that head out each week-end for spirited riding on fancied motorcycle roads. Stating again why it it so important on the road, when you find yourself coming in hot into a corner, or the corner unexpectedly tightens up, or the massive pothole you didn't see forces you to change line, the line of water still running across the otherwise dry road, etc, etc, this is NOT the time to be thinking well perhaps I should have got into a more aggressive riding position so I could have handled the situation better. You'll have plenty of time to ponder what you should have done while you're lying in hospital, if your lucky.

It should be instinctive second nature to mentally assess every corner as you approach it in terms of line, gear to be in, braking required, AND amount of body shift required to get around the corner with a significant safety margin to allow you to hopefully deal with any unknown. That's why it should be practiced and integrated as just a normal part of your riding, you don't even consciously think about it, you just do it.

If your riding down the freeway with gentle curves, just like the GP racer no need to alter your normal position. If you just riding around the corner to the shops, just like a GP racer doing a victory lap, no need to alter your normal riding position. But like any technique it must be practiced over and over to become effective and natural. Even riding to work there's a freeway off ramp that turns hard right back under the freeway but has a rutted negative camber. Stay upright at speed and you'll know your alive, tackle it an an aggressive riding position and you'll sail around it.

What do you ever expect to be good enough at if you don't practice it before you absolute require it.

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Old 02-19-2014, 04:50 PM   #269
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I don't explicitly lean a lot of the time, but when I'm going faster I utilize the trick of sticking my chin out towards my inside hand... which forces me to lean off of the inside of the bike. It is a natural complement to countersteeering and lets me shift my weight appropriately so I don't make the mistake of 'counterleaning.'

And, for those who thinking 'turning' a bike at speed is hard, it's actually very easy... if you push on the handlebar that is on the side you wish to turn. It's that subconscious fight between leaning and pulling on the inside handlebar that makes turning hard... in short, the wrong technique (you are telling the bike to turn one way with your body and another way with the handlebars). Countersteering is the only way a motorcycle can be steered at speed, and the same is true of a bicycle.

To the OP, the single best tip I know about motorcycling is to never hesitate to lean the bike over more if necessary to make a turn. As others have mentioned, the bike will lean further, and turn better, than most people think. As long as you're not dragging hard parts the bike WILL lean further and corner more sharply... and if you get your butt off the seat and lean your body you can turn even more sharply.

I decided a while ago that if I'm going to fail to make a curve, it will be because I've low-sided instead of failed to turn/lean enough... far less damaging to me and the bike, and far better chance of a noneventful outcome.
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Old 02-19-2014, 06:12 PM   #270
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for those who thinking 'turning' a bike at speed is hard, it's actually very easy... if you push on the handlebar that is on the side you wish to turn. It's that subconscious fight between leaning and pulling on the inside handlebar that makes turning hard... in short, the wrong technique (you are telling the bike to turn one way with your body and another way with the handlebars). Countersteering is the only way a motorcycle can be steered at speed, and the same is true of a bicycle.
I give up........

Go watch Keith Code's video "Twist of the Wrist". An 'inexpensive' copy can be obtain from a pirate in about 15 minutes if you know about torrents. It's a punishing cheesy piece of self-promotion that's way to long, but he does give appropriate coverage to all the fundamental elements. Perhaps 10 minutes of a 2 hour video is devoted to an explanation of counter-steering.
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