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Old 01-28-2014, 01:03 PM   #76
MotoTex
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johncw View Post
people who drop their shoulder and knee into turns when there is no need to provide extra clearance are just posers.
ftfy
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Old 01-28-2014, 01:20 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
ftfy
You drop your knee to move the center of gravity inward. Anything that moves the CG inward makes a bike go around the corner easier, especially a big heavy BMW touring bike.
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Old 01-28-2014, 02:39 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
You drop your knee to move the center of gravity inward. Anything that moves the CG inward makes a bike go around the corner easier, especially a big heavy BMW touring bike.
I thought you were going on about hanging out there like a GP racer. My misunderstanding.

That technique IMHO is rarely justified for the majority of routine street riding being done. (repeated speed runs up and down the canyon isn't routine) Hanging it out there probably increases risk in more cases than not. This is due more to the myriad variables found on the street that aren't found on the track where this technique is used to eek out the last bit of performance of man/machine/surface in a tightly controlled environment.

Some get in the habit of being all hung out there and find out just how well an unanticipated gravel patch or errant piece of cardboard, or the surprise of a hot tar snake is dealt with from that precarious position. Whoops, didn't make the turn again.

As for the technique you shared, the weight of either knee moving outward six inches or so is insignificant in relationship to the overall mass of my 500 lb. bike with my 250 lb. carcass on it. On a "big heavy BMW touring bike" it would be even less significant.

If you are doing this as part of shifting weight to the ball of your foot on that peg, then sure, every little bit helps and all. Do you feel this is something a rider having problems turning should focus on first in order to improve their technique?

Would this take priority over practicing a simple weave using the handlebars to increase familiarity with steering inputs?

IMHO what you describe is only helpful as an advanced technique after having mastered the foundational skills. The ones lacking that caused the rider to miss the turn to begin with. Braking, calculating the line, steering the bike, looking through the turn all have to become a practiced skill before adding anything else to fine tune technique with subtleties.
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Old 01-28-2014, 03:54 PM   #79
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I think all modern day sports bikes can out perform 90% of there riders.
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Bollocks screwed with this post 01-28-2014 at 04:18 PM Reason: Spilling, it's ard.
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Old 01-28-2014, 05:16 PM   #80
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I don't hang off the side. I just brake, downshift, counter-steer, look through the turn, and throttle out. Keep it simple. If the bike starts sliding, and you use tires that break loose gradually, it's easy enough to adjust for. The pegs on a dualsport are WAY up there, so I don't have a concern about dragging them on a public road. I usually lean with the bike or stay on top of it and lean it under me.

A tire that breaks loose suddenly on pavement can make things interesting, especially if it's the front.

I don't stand the instant I get on dirt either. I usually only stand when I need more control, more ability to transfer weight, or more suspension.
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Old 01-28-2014, 05:45 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
Sitting at your computer, feet on the floor pretending your in a riding position, hands on the imaginary bars out in front. Comfortable?

Now dip your left shoulder forward and down (we're turning left), and observe what your hands naturally do. If your left hand didn't naturally go forward (counter-steering) you've got a serious spinal problem. Why spend thousands of hours debating counter-steering theory, when all you have to do is tell someone to dip the inner shoulder down and forward into a turn. Try dipping your left shoulder in the same manner, and push your right hand forward. Pretty dam hard to do isn't it?

Now using the balls of your feet, push up enough to just take your weight and slide 2 inches across the chair to the left. Pretty easy? Now combine both the arse shift with the shoulder dip, moving arse then shoulder. Careful, I've been told you'll fall of the chair unless your an expert.

Now lift your left foot from its straight ahead position and place the ball of your foot on the end of the imaginary left foot peg….Now put it all together, arse shift, foot pivot, shoulder dip. Really wasn't that hard was it? If you'd have been on a real bike you'd have utilized counter-steering together with a significant shift of the center of gravity, and kept your motorcycle more upright in the turn.
Great! Thanks to you, I just wrecked my dining chair into the wifey's priceless china collection on the sideboard. Ya REALLY THINK she's gonna buy the ol' '…but honey, I was merely practicing counter steering' argument? Now I gotta think up something that isn't fake….
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Old 01-28-2014, 06:05 PM   #82
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You're lucky you weren't on a bike.
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Old 01-28-2014, 06:18 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Kommando View Post
I don't stand the instant I get on dirt either. I usually only stand when I need more control, more ability to transfer weight, or more suspension.
I stand when I need to fart.
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Old 01-28-2014, 06:34 PM   #84
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I stand when I need to fart.
What happens if it's more than a fart.
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Old 01-28-2014, 06:35 PM   #85
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What happens if it's more than a fart.
I don't sit back down!
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Old 01-29-2014, 02:34 AM   #86
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I stand when I need to fart.
That's great, but but how do you stop them chasing you? No matter how fast I ride my farts always seem to overtake me.
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Old 01-29-2014, 03:48 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
I thought you were going on about hanging out there like a GP racer.

That technique IMHO is rarely justified for the majority of routine street riding being done. (repeated speed runs up and down the canyon isn't routine) Hanging it out there probably increases risk in more cases than not. This is due more to the myriad variables found on the street that aren't found on the track where this technique is used to eek out the last bit of performance of man/machine/surface in a tightly controlled environment.

As for the technique you shared, the weight of either knee moving outward six inches or so is insignificant in relationship to the overall mass of my 500 lb. bike with my 250 lb. carcass on it. On a "big heavy BMW touring bike" it would be even less significant.

If you are doing this as part of shifting weight to the ball of your foot on that peg, then sure, every little bit helps and all. Do you feel this is something a rider having problems turning should focus on first in order to improve their technique?

Would this take priority over practicing a simple weave using the handlebars to increase familiarity with steering inputs?

IMHO what you describe is only helpful as an advanced technique after having mastered the foundational skills. The ones lacking that caused the rider to miss the turn to begin with. Braking, calculating the line, steering the bike, looking through the turn all have to become a practiced skill before adding anything else to fine tune technique with subtleties.
Hi MT,
Taking the main points in you post in order.

Go back and read my posts, nowhere did I say hang out the side like Marc Marquez. As radical as I got in my make believe demonstration was a 2 inch shift on your seat, dropped shoulder, weight forward, and knee out. And I said find you own comfortable limits. If that's MM style well all power to you, if its just a slight lean to the inside, it'll still be better than sitting bolt upright 1950's style.

Routine street riding - the topic being discussed was a guy who lost it on a country road at 60 mph, an a large BMW tourer. The OP felt the corner could be taken at a speed significantly faster (70/80mph ???), up to the point of dragging pegs. The topic never was beginner commuter riding or variations that people want to chuck in.

Myriad of variables on the street - I'm repeating myself. That's the very reason its even more important to develop a riding habit of always being in the best position to control the motorcycle. On a track you just doing it for speed, on a country twistie, it may be your life. Anyone who says they've never misjudged a corner is either full of BS, or rides like a granny.

Hang you knee - I just gave that as an example how little or how far one can apply the technique of weight shifting. I'm obviously quite interested in the topic so looked up a lot of old footage to see just who and when the classic 'tuck' racing position changed. The earliest footage (all on the internet) of a change in style that I could find is of Gicaomo Agistine (late 1960, early 70) who is the first to just hang out a knee. Think about this, the perhaps greatest motorcycle rider of all time rode classic style, but did hang a knee. If it worked for Gicaomo does anyone really want to say not worth doing?

Fundamental skills - Why does everyone assume the rider who didn't take the corner was a beginner? Didn't make a turn, must be a beginner. Not a very solid reason. By the choice of bike I'm actually assuming he wasn't. Could be a whole lot of reasons why he didn't make the corner, even the choice of bike being one of them.
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Old 01-29-2014, 03:52 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Badjuju View Post
Great! Thanks to you, I just wrecked my dining chair into the wifey's priceless china collection on the sideboard. Ya REALLY THINK she's gonna buy the ol' '…but honey, I was merely practicing counter steering' argument? Now I gotta think up something that isn't fake….
OK, should have given the braking tuition first. (I think that's a pun).
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Old 01-29-2014, 04:22 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Bollocks View Post
I think all modern day sports bikes can out perform 90% of there riders.
Don't disagree with the above statement at all. How about mine then?

90% of the riders of modern day sports-bikes have no idea whatsoever how to set them up. Even if they can point to the compression and rebound adjusters, they couldn't explain what they do. Consequently relatively light stiff sport bikes are bouncing all over the place on typical B and C grade road corners having been factory set-up for billiard table smooth type road.
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Old 01-29-2014, 04:29 AM   #90
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[QUOTE=JohnCW;23320617]Hi BC,
Can I recommend you progress to moving you butt. To do this effortlessly you need to ride with the balls of your feet on the pegs if not already doing it. Just ride along in a straight line and shift you butt half way across the seat, and drop you shoulder and knee on that side, what happens? The bike just starts to turn in that direction....... magic!!

Took your advice and and changed my style today. Felt like I was riding a different bike, awesome! Seems I was getting into some bad habits, two hour commute everyday, starting to ride lazy. I realized my feet were too far forward on the pegs and had stopped using my weight as an advantage, thanks for the reminder. My commute today, much more enjoyable.
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