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Old 01-29-2014, 07:15 PM   #106
JohnCW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anotherguy View Post
Jarno Saarinen Silverstone 1972


Imaginary interview with Jarno in 1972:

Jarno, how much counter-steering do you use? Excussee, count what?

Good one Jarno (chuckle, chuckle) you know when you push the bars left-to-turn left. No I don't do that, I just ride the bike.

(Another chuckle) Well you are doing it, you just don't know you are doing it with your hands as there's no other way to get a motorcycle around a corner....

Jarno.....JARNO...... Come back, I'm sorry. Can we start again.......pleaseeeeee????
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Old 01-29-2014, 11:26 PM   #107
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Come ride with me sometime. If you're doing fun speeds over the hills and around the bends gravel happens without prior notice.
Maybe you need glasses.
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Old 01-29-2014, 11:40 PM   #108
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Come ride with me sometime. If you're doing fun speeds over the hills and around the bends gravel happens without prior notice.
While that explains why you can go faster on a track without worry, it does nothing to explain why anyone NEEDS to go to a track to learn. Because that statement is blatently false.

That said, the o.p. seems like a bit of target fixation to me.
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Old 01-30-2014, 12:10 AM   #109
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Interesting, just spent an hour on youtube watching old road racing videos. Hard to find good enough pictures to really see it.
In the early seventies most were sitting straight up, quite a few actually leaning the upper body somewhat to the outside and leaning the bike alone into the turns like a dirt rider. Only a very few were sticking a knee out, one or two were sitting to the inside of the seat, none were really hanging off the bike.

By the late seventies almost all were hanging off to the inside, although not as much as they do today.
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Old 01-30-2014, 04:45 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
That said, the o.p. seems like a bit of target fixation to me.
All I was able to find in the original post regarding what actually occurred was "the rider had said it wouldn't make the turn". Everything else is just the thoughts of people who weren't there. Would you mind elaborating on what you feel indicates 'target fixations' as the most likely cause.

Thanks,

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Old 01-30-2014, 05:05 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
While that explains why you can go faster on a track without worry, it does nothing to explain why anyone NEEDS to go to a track to learn. Because that statement is blatently false.

That said, the o.p. seems like a bit of target fixation to me.
When it comes to motorcycling needs got nothing to do with it. Either you want to learn or you don't.
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Old 01-30-2014, 05:07 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
All I was able to find in the original post regarding what actually occurred was "the rider had said it wouldn't make the turn". Everything else is just the thoughts of people who weren't there. Would you mind elaborating on what you feel indicates 'target fixations' as the most likely cause.

Thanks,
The motorcycle usually goes where you look. If the bike went off the road, then that's where the rider was looking. if the rider was looking off the road, then it's a somewhat safe bet he was target fixating on something he shouldn't have been if he didn't want to go that way.
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Old 01-30-2014, 05:09 AM   #113
JohnCW
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I have only one take on this "the bike would not turn" phenomenon,

A vast majority of the riders out there learned to operate a motor vehicle in a car.

There instinct is to turn the wheel in the direction of the turn. When in panic mode on a motorcycle, they do exactly that. They turn the bars towards the direction of the turn, effectively counter, counter steering.
Boom, off the road excursion.
I was thinking of all the possibilities and some that came to mind included:

A) The big BMW touring bike don't handle in the corners all that well compared to other bikes that the person may have been riding with?

B) The suspension was poorly set up, particularly with the load the bike may have been carrying?

C) A big BMW touring bike was really not a good choice of bike for the size and experience of the rider.

D) The combined effect of some of A, B, C, resulted in the rider loosing confidence and instead of perhaps applying power through and out of the turn, he went for the brakes.

You've concluded the above are not the causes, and the inability to effectively counter steer is what occurred. Would appreciate if you could elaborate why you feel the other reasons weren't valid possibilities, and ineffective counter steering was the cause.

Thanks,
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Old 01-30-2014, 05:23 AM   #114
JohnCW
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The motorcycle usually goes where you look.
I've run wide in corners, probably just like everyone else. Reasons that quickly come to mind (in no particular order):
  • Old tires
  • Worn tires
  • Badly set up suspension
  • Excessive speed
  • Poor weight transfer
  • Worn shocks
  • Underweight front springs

I once rode with a couple of guys riding Triumph Rocket III's with ape hangers. Didn't seem to matter which way they looked, the bike still wanted to run straight on in corners.
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Old 01-30-2014, 05:26 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
I've run wide in corners, probably just like everyone else. Reasons that quickly come to mind (in no particular order):
  • Old tires
  • Worn tires
  • Badly set up suspension
  • Excessive speed
  • Poor weight transfer
  • Worn shocks
  • Underweight front springs

I once rode with a couple of guys riding Triumph Rocket III's with ape hangers. Didn't seem to matter which way they looked, the bike still wanted to run straight on in corners.
I've never run wide for any of those reasons, just from not paying close enough attention. I've always been able to adapt to how a bike is set up. And regardless of the setup, the bikes have ALWAY gone where I was looking. Those are usually excuses for riders whose skills are lacking.
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Old 01-30-2014, 05:33 AM   #116
JohnCW
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I've never run wide for any of those reasons, just from not paying close enough attention. I've always been able to adapt to how a bike is set up. And regardless of the setup, the bikes have ALWAY gone where I was looking. Those are usually excuses for riders whose skills are lacking.
Then I bow to someone of clearly much greater ability than myself, as you've clearly pointed out.

I've a friend who works in the police accident investigation squad. I need to tell him that whenever a motorcycle runs off the road no need to waste time going out to the crash site to determine the cause, its always "target fixation". Should save him a lot of time.

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Old 01-30-2014, 07:12 AM   #117
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Then I bow to someone of clearly much greater ability than myself, as you've clearly pointed out.

I've a friend who works in the police accident investigation squad. I need to tell him that whenever a motorcycle runs off the road no need to waste time going out to the crash site to determine the cause, its always "target fixation". Should save him a lot of time.
You're welcome.
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Old 01-30-2014, 07:33 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
While that explains why you can go faster on a track without worry, it does nothing to explain why anyone NEEDS to go to a track to learn. Because that statement is blatently false.

That said, the o.p. seems like a bit of target fixation to me.

Time out.
There seems to be a contingent of riders here that are street "purists". I really don't understand why anyone that enjoys going fast on the street would be so dead set against riding on a track.
The good points of track riding.
1 No speed limits. You can go as fast as you are capable of going . the limit being your ability to stay on the track through the course. That requires learning where to back off and how much brake to use.
2 No opposeing traffic. This is a major plus. with everyone going to same dirrection, you have more attention to spend on the track surface and finding available traction.
3 You will lean further and push harder if you apply yourself and the lessons you've learned.

The bad.
1 It's expensive. Tires wear out, protective gear must be purchased, sometimes bikes get wadded.
2 You see the same 10 to 14 turns over and over.

So if you're dead set against trying the track because you're cheap, just admit it.
I promise if you do give a try, you won't be bored and you will learn something. You may even go back for more.
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Old 01-30-2014, 07:45 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by bk brkr baker View Post
Time out.
There seems to be a contingent of riders here that are street "purists". I really don't understand why anyone that enjoys going fast on the street would be so dead set against riding on a track.
The good points of track riding.
1 No speed limits. You can go as fast as you are capable of going . the limit being your ability to stay on the track through the course. That requires learning where to back off and how much brake to use.
2 No opposeing traffic. This is a major plus. with everyone going to same dirrection, you have more attention to spend on the track surface and finding available traction.
3 You will lean further and push harder if you apply yourself and the lessons you've learned.

The bad.
1 It's expensive. Tires wear out, protective gear must be purchased, sometimes bikes get wadded.
2 You see the same 10 to 14 turns over and over.

So if you're dead set against trying the track because you're cheap, just admit it.
I promise if you do give a try, you won't be bored and you will learn something. You may even go back for more.
I don't particularly want to do a track day. Haven't ruled it out completely, but I have no desire to do one, so it would have to be cheap.

I know it wouldn't be boring, but I don't think it would be "fun". I also know that a lot of people say they ride slower on the street because they get it out of their system on the track. A few say they ride more aggressively because they are more confident. I know myself. If I did many track days, I would start pushing harder on the street, which I don't want to do.
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Old 01-30-2014, 07:47 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by bk brkr baker View Post
Time out.
There seems to be a contingent of riders here that are street "purists". I really don't understand why anyone that enjoys going fast on the street would be so dead set against riding on a track.
It's nothing but the fox and the grapes syndrome. It's the ones that have never been on a track that are so adamant about not benefiting from it. You never hear anyone that truthfully has been on a track say anything but the fact that it can and will make you a better over all rider.
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