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Old 01-30-2014, 07:28 AM   #121
MotoTex
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Any place that is isolated from traffic where you can repeatedly go over techniques without having to be concerned about other variables is good for sharpening specific skills.

A large, empty parking lot can be utilized to hone and fine tune street skills. Abandoned sub-divisions with paved roads and no homes are another place I have played over the years.

A track has its purposes as well, and many of the things practiced there can transfer to the street.

The things I'd find beneficial on a track I can practice somewhat safely elsewhere without the expense, but there are other things I'm less interested in that can only be practiced with reasonable safety on the track. No doubt that it can be a ton of fun, and it is wiser to do those things there than on the street, but track days don't score very high on my list of things to do.
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Old 01-30-2014, 08:08 AM   #122
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LMAO Lots of good and not so good opinions around here.
Any motorcycle will out turn most riders. There are exceptions but that is why they call them "exceptions". Parking lot drills teach and enforce motor skills (yours not the machines) that are needed to do most things. Very good but far from perfect. BTW, anyone ever finds prefect and can prove it will be remembered for ever.

Track riding. This is a bit of a quandary. It will help you learn your bike limits, as well as your limits. Make someone a better rider, well, probably not but the limits can be known and that is good. Want a real learning experience? Throw some random gravel, a blue hair in a Buik, and a few texting distracted cage drivers going well under the flow. NOW you have a learning opportunity.

I get a reinforced feeling of why I ride alone or with a very select group every time I read things on this board. But hey, it is entertaining.

For the original question, well hard to say for certain, but pilot error is many more times the cause than not. We do things on motorcycles that defy ingrained survival that has been there from the dawn of time. It just is what it is. Every now and then that ingrained reaction comes back to us and gets us in trouble. Practicing how to avoid this occasional survival reaction is how we actually survive 2 wheels.

Cheers

txwanderer screwed with this post 01-30-2014 at 08:13 AM
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Old 01-30-2014, 10:17 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by shovelstrokeed View Post
I have only one take on this "the bike would not turn" phenomenon,

A vast majority of the riders out there learned to operate a motor vehicle in a car.

There instinct is to turn the wheel in the direction of the turn. When in panic mode on a motorcycle, they do exactly that. They turn the bars towards the direction of the turn, effectively counter, counter steering.
Boom, off the road excursion.
Yeah, this. Trying to lean AND steer into the turn.

I tried it and it really feels like the bars just don't want to turn.

I imagine that when an inexperienced person goes from non-deliberate steering ("I just ride it") to deliberate steering ("....oooh shit!" situation), that they pick the wrong direction to push the bars: into the turn like a car.
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Old 01-30-2014, 10:20 AM   #124
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Think of your pillion!
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Old 01-30-2014, 12:23 PM   #125
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Think of your pillion!
After the first time I do it, they learn to stand up when I do.
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Old 01-30-2014, 05:50 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by pretbek View Post
I imagine that when an inexperienced person goes from non-deliberate steering ("I just ride it") to deliberate steering ("....oooh shit!" situation), that they pick the wrong direction to push the bars: into the turn like a car.
Do a poll of when riders first heard of the term and concept "counter steering".

I'll kick it off, about 5 years ago. Started riding 45 years ago. Forty years without knowing what counter-steering was, or applying pressure to either side of the bars. Don't think I unique, riders for nearly 100 years, "just rode it".
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Old 01-30-2014, 06:01 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
All I was able to find in the original post regarding what actually occurred was "the rider had said it wouldn't make the turn". Everything else is just the thoughts of people who weren't there. Would you mind elaborating on what you feel indicates 'target fixations' as the most likely cause.

Thanks,
The original poster stated it was a no brainer 60 mph turn. Should be able to make that on a sporty bike, and to not make it seems like the rider was focused on a spot other than the exit of the turn. Just a guess, but that is what it sounds like to me.
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Old 01-30-2014, 06:02 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Albie View Post
When it comes to motorcycling needs got nothing to do with it. Either you want to learn or you don't.
True. Wanting to learn and needing to go to the track to do it are two distinctly different things. No one needs to go to the track to learn how to ride off the track.
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Old 01-30-2014, 06:07 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by bk brkr baker View Post
Time out.
There seems to be a contingent of riders here that are street "purists". I really don't understand why anyone that enjoys going fast on the street would be so dead set against riding on a track.
The good points of track riding.
1 No speed limits. You can go as fast as you are capable of going . the limit being your ability to stay on the track through the course. That requires learning where to back off and how much brake to use.
2 No opposeing traffic. This is a major plus. with everyone going to same dirrection, you have more attention to spend on the track surface and finding available traction.
3 You will lean further and push harder if you apply yourself and the lessons you've learned.

The bad.
1 It's expensive. Tires wear out, protective gear must be purchased, sometimes bikes get wadded.
2 You see the same 10 to 14 turns over and over.

So if you're dead set against trying the track because you're cheap, just admit it.
I promise if you do give a try, you won't be bored and you will learn something. You may even go back for more.
You've got it wrong. I don't go to the track because I have no need to push my bike that hard and would rather sptnd the time travelling and wandering on the bike.

All I am saying is that these people who say track days are necessary in order to become a good rider on the street are full of it. Nothing against going to the track if that floats your boat. Go for it! Have fun! But don't get all high and mighty and say that it is the only way to become a good rider. Because it is not, and it sends the wrong message. If you want to be a good street rider, practice on the street. If you want to beome a good track guy, practice on the track.
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Old 01-30-2014, 06:24 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
You've got it wrong. I don't go to the track because I have no need to push my bike that hard and would rather sptnd the time travelling and wandering on the bike.

All I am saying is that these people who say track days are necessary in order to become a good rider on the street are full of it. Nothing against going to the track if that floats your boat. Go for it! Have fun! But don't get all high and mighty and say that it is the only way to become a good rider. Because it is not, and it sends the wrong message. If you want to be a good street rider, practice on the street. If you want to beome a good track guy, practice on the track.
Either way you've got to raise your limits. Riding for years like an old woman is NOT experience.
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Old 01-30-2014, 06:38 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
Do a poll of when riders first heard of the term and concept "counter steering".

I'll kick it off, about 5 years ago. Started riding 45 years ago. Forty years without knowing what counter-steering was, or applying pressure to either side of the bars. Don't think I unique, riders for nearly 100 years, "just rode it".
My Dad eplained it to me when he taught me to ride a bicycle over fifty years ago. He used different words than counter steering, out steering or out tracking or something like that, but what he was teaching me was counter steering. Made me watch the front wheel, to turn right the wheel steers and moves left first.

I always thought everyone who ever rode on two wheels knew this until I started reding the hopeless arguments here..
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Old 01-30-2014, 06:54 PM   #132
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My Dad eplained it to me when he taught me to ride a bicycle over fifty years ago. He used different words than counter steering, out steering or out tracking or something like that, but what he was teaching me was counter steering. Made me watch the front wheel, to turn right the wheel steers and moves left first.

I always thought everyone who ever rode on two wheels knew this until I started reding the hopeless arguments here..
Most people just don't know they know it.
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Old 01-30-2014, 07:10 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by joexr View Post
most people just don't know they know it.
+ 1
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Old 01-30-2014, 07:45 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by hippiebrian View Post
You've got it wrong. I don't go to the track because I have no need to push my bike that hard and would rather sptnd the time travelling and wandering on the bike.

All I am saying is that these people who say track days are necessary in order to become a good rider on the street are full of it. Nothing against going to the track if that floats your boat. Go for it! Have fun! But don't get all high and mighty and say that it is the only way to become a good rider. Because it is not, and it sends the wrong message. If you want to be a good street rider, practice on the street. If you want to beome a good track guy, practice on the track.

dey is none so bline as dey who will not see

O.K. You don't want to go to a track. I get that.
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Old 01-30-2014, 07:51 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by bk brkr baker View Post
dey is none so bline as dey who will not see
+1
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