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Old 02-09-2014, 09:01 AM   #151
Wraith Rider
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Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
What you are saying really is that only what is your fun is fun for all.
Well no. It's only that I don't like it when someone tries to justify his choice by stating it's the faster bike while it's not.

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Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
It really shows when you wax on about automatic transmissions (yep really high performance there) and when one was pointed out you dismiss it as not having road race level horsepower.
Wait. WHAT EXACTLY is your problem with me choosing the more powerful automatic bike?

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Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
some definitely reward the short and quick to turn along with holding cornering speed even if the speed is only 30-60 mph (those usually have a recommended speed limit sign reading 15 or 25 mph and often accompanied by an S turn sign since they seem to come in combinations)


I just showed a video of such a road ony my big girl in the parallel thread about ADV vs. ST bikes.

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Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
In other words, a rider has to see it to understand it and ride it to realize it. You apparently have not done this or not done it on an appropriate motorcycle.
Put your prejudices away. That I don't agree with you doesn't mean I haven't tried your way.

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Originally Posted by BDMJ View Post
I should have been more clear. A heavier bike at maximum lean angle is more likely to overcome the tires' grip. A lighter bike can corner at maximum lean at speeds impossible on a heavier bike. It also can add acceleration at those angles with more safety because the tire is not under the same load.
To compensate for that, heavy bikes in general have bigger tyres. The wider contact patch helps as well. On rubber it's all about surface pressure, that's to be kept at an optimum.

@klaviator
Being informed about your riding conditions or not, I think my paved/unpaved differing is a good one.
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Old 02-09-2014, 09:18 AM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post

To compensate for that, heavy bikes in general have bigger tyres. The wider contact patch helps as well. On rubber it's all about surface pressure, that's to be kept at an optimum.

@klaviator
Being informed about your riding conditions or not, I think my paved/unpaved differing is a good one.

When it comes to speed, it's more the rider than the bike, at least it is on public roads.

The roads here are considerably different than those in Germany. I have been on paved roads that were rougher than many of the dirt roads I have been on. If I limited myself to only smooth paved roads, I couldn't ride many of my favorite roads.

As I said before, if I lived in Germany, I would be riding a different Bike(s) than I have now. A sport tourer would be a definite possibility although I'd prefer something smaller and Lighter than your VFR1200.
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Old 02-09-2014, 09:29 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by klaviator View Post
When it comes to speed, it's more the rider than the bike, at least it is on public roads.
But to bring riders in the equation would be senseless when comparing bikes.

However, you showed some pics, do you have some more of the rough but paved ones you're mentioning?
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Old 02-09-2014, 09:47 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
But to bring riders in the equation would be senseless when comparing bikes.

However, you showed some pics, do you have some more of the rough but paved ones you're mentioning?
I'm bringing riders into the equation because it makes the whole issue of whether a heavy or light bike is faster irrelevant on public roads. On the race track, light is better without question, all other things being equal.

As for pics of rough roads, I'm not sure I have any really good ones. Also pics often don't really show how rough a roads is.

Here is a somewhat rough road from a recent ride.



This road a a fairly rough surface although you can't really see it in the pic:



Another typical road where 150 HP is complete overkill:



This road was rough but more importantly had crap ( gravel, dirt, rocks) all over it:



This is one of my favorites. Many miles of curvy, smooth, and scenic
pavement followed but this:



And this:



Yes, you could ride all of these roads on your VFR, but would you?
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Old 02-09-2014, 09:51 AM   #155
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Here's a typical ride in the North Georgia Mountains. Try this on your VFR

http://vimeo.com/14631947
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Old 02-09-2014, 11:04 AM   #156
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Thanks for the pics and vid, I really appreciated watching. Nice music too.

For the vid:
First minute - niiice wide sweepers, seems to be perfect for my VFR
Second minute - unpaved, no discussion about that, I always said there are other rules in place (that's what I bought my Grizzly for - and with her I'd joyfully splash through the puddles)
minute five - again a perfect road for my VFR
and after that non-paved for Grizzly drifting again (in fact, I wished my Grizzly was more powerful as well, but as she's no motorcycle that doesn't count)

For the pics from top to bottom:
- not my preferred one, no matter what bike I'm on, my big girl managed worse potholes but I just don't like em and the gravel they bring
- agree, can't judge the surface due to the lighting
- looks quite straight, so I can't see why 150hp would be overkill, nice scenery
- as I said, hairpins are not mine and gravel/dirt on paved roads isn't nice no matter what ride you're on, a knobby is good for dirt, but dirt on pavement... had some sliding rear tyres due to cornering speed, not acceleration, under such conditions
- looks still nice
- unpaved again, so we agree there

All in all I think my basic rule is good I think and your choice of bike is good for the combination of terrain you ride (I think it follows my rule of thumb).
So I don't see why we're actually arguing. (But it's good to have argued with you, since I've seen nice pics and a nice vid.)
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Old 02-09-2014, 01:07 PM   #157
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Your Grizzly would not be legal any of the places we rode. The majority of the unpaved riding around here requires a street legal bike.
The great thing about a dual sport or adventure bike is that you can ride some great paved twisties and go off road on the same ride.


You posted earlier that you like your powerful bike on all kinds of roads. While that may be true in Germany, around here you would be very limited. My KLR for example, while not ideal on any road, works pretty well for every type of riding except two up touring or really serious dirt riding. If I lived in Germany I seriously doubt I would own a KLR. Different bikes for different environments.
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Old 02-10-2014, 12:07 AM   #158
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Sorry, haven't really had time to read the thread yet.

I have a 2013 R1200GS Adventure. Even at 6'0 when I put the suspension in "two person mode" it raises it up enough that I'm on my tip-toes. When I ride it, it feels like I'm riding the death star. Some times it's awesome, some times not so much. Big bikes can be a lot of fun off road, you just have to have confidence in yourself and the throttle and know when to gun it.

I do some times wish I had a little bit smaller bike for just cruising around town but this Behemoth takes up my motorcycle fun money and I'm weird about only wanting to own new motorcycles that no one else has ridden. Simply going on a cruise around the suburbs of North Phoenix with the missus means mounting the gigantic beast, harnessing it's massive size and power and then going 25mph past a soccer field. getting on and off it should be an olympic sport in all honesty, I some times wish I had something I could just hop on and off easily and be some where within oxygen distance of the earth way down below the seat.
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Old 02-10-2014, 07:26 AM   #159
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@klaviator
Here it's not legal to go offroad at all in most places

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The great thing about a dual sport or adventure bike is that you can ride some great paved twisties and go off road on the same ride.
That's what they're built for! I never denied that!

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Originally Posted by klaviator View Post
You posted earlier that you like your powerful bike on all kinds of roads. While that may be true in Germany, around here you would be very limited.
Paved roads! As long as it's all paved there's nothing limiting me on the VFR (or a full on sports bike for that matter). This, your roads being partly unpaved and my basic statement (unpaved -> lighter; paved -> more powerful) are completely in line.
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Old 02-10-2014, 08:14 AM   #160
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@klaviator

Paved roads! As long as it's all paved there's nothing limiting me on the VFR (or a full on sports bike for that matter). This, your roads being partly unpaved and my basic statement (unpaved -> lighter; paved -> more powerful) are completely in line.
Even if I stuck only to paved roads, I still don't buy into the more powerful = better theory. I used to ride almost all paved roads until 13 years ago when I bought my XT350 and started exploring all the unpaved roads.

Lets consider the road in your video. How is your bike any better than lets say a Ninja 300? I think the 300 would be more fun than something heavy like your VFR. So, FOR ME, more is not better. Since you prefer more power, FOR YOU, the VFR is better. All the arguement about which would be faster is irrelevant. Whichever bike had the faster rider on it would be faster. In any case, it's a public road, not a race track so running either a Ninja 300 or VFR 1200 at 100% would be stupid.

BTW, although I bought my XT so I could ride of the pavement, I quickly discovered that it's an absolute blast on a twisty paved road On a really tight road, it's more fun than any other bike I have owned.

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Old 02-10-2014, 09:30 AM   #161
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Here's a paved road. You still want to stick to your bigger and more powerful is better theory?

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Old 02-10-2014, 09:47 AM   #162
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P.S.:
Now you're being childish.Snow is not more pavement than dirt is. (Let's talk about dirt roads covered with tarmac...)


OK, at that point we should define what's "better". For me it means that the bike delivers a higher performance. Related to power, performance mainly means harder acceleration. The Ninja might perform better regarding to suspension, because it's a sports bike. But then I could have sacrificed comfort as well and could have bought me a CBR600RR (similar weight/power ratio).
I consider my VFR more fun than a Ninja 300 - or a ... well there the problem starts, I wouldn't want a sports bike, because I like it comfortable, but still I like the forward oriented seating position. Maybe a modern version of the VF500F would be apealing to me if I was into small bikes. I find it hard to find a small sports tourer. What was I about to say? Ah yes, I wanted to say, why I think a 2kg/hp (or even 1.5kg/hp) bike is more fun than a 4kg/hp (or even 8kg/hp) bike, because in addition to scrape the pegs through the corner, it as well is able to ROCKET out of the corner. That's a choice I don't have on a less powerful bike like the Ninja 300. On the powerful bike it only depends on my moot.



Quote:
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Whichever bike had the faster rider on it would be faster.
The rider is completely irrelevant for comparing bikes. It just makes no sense because to bring the rider into the equation would destroy the comparability of the bikes.
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Old 02-10-2014, 10:25 AM   #163
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Who cares? Ride whatever the fuck you want to ride! I'll do the same, as will the rest of us, no matter how long this thread goes on.
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Old 02-10-2014, 10:34 AM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
P.S.:

The rider is completely irrelevant for comparing bikes. It just makes no sense because to bring the rider into the equation would destroy the comparability of the bikes.
It's ALL about the rider. The bike doesn't matter!

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Old 02-10-2014, 10:40 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
P.S.:

The rider is completely irrelevant for comparing bikes. It just makes no sense because to bring the rider into the equation would destroy the comparability of the bikes.
If you want to compare bikes to see which one is the better, then it is completely impossible to do without considering the rider. Every rider has a different opinion on what is better.

Based on what I consider better, a VFR1200 will not rate very high even if I only consider how it works on Pavement. What works best for you is completely irrelevant for me.

So exactly how can you determine better without considering the rider??
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