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Old 02-10-2014, 10:45 AM   #166
Wraith Rider
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Originally Posted by klaviator View Post
It's ALL about the rider. The bike doesn't matter!
If you want to compare riders, go watch competitions. To compare bikes it's an absolute must to ignore the rider. The rider would waaaay too much influence the operation of the bike. The answer will always be "Valentino", no matter if he ridess the Vespa or the Panigale.
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Old 02-10-2014, 10:57 AM   #167
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dude, i think you answered your own question: if the rider -- rossi, in the most extreme example -- doesn't match to the bike, comparisons are just spreadsheet merges and about as fun to consider as "my dad can beat your dad" nerd pissing matches.

get a bike that fits you, and, MOST things considered, you will be faster and smoother than a bike ridden by someone who ill-matched to it or ill-trained to ride it. A rider who takes regular training and track days, rides a lot in different environments, and thinks about his skills will ALWAYS make a bike perform at a MUCH higher level closer to the bike's max performance, so, in that case, a Ninja 300 can definitely kick the ass of a much bigger, faster-on-paper ride.

i'm a relative n00b, but i picked a bike that matched me well (a suzuki gladius) and i outride far more "experienced" riders on bigger displacement or "sportier" rides. i chased down a pair of gixxer 750s and passed 'em on a major primary here in washington, and those bikes SLAUGHTER mine on paper. i feel connected to the bike at all times and can sense all its quirks and behaviors, and the absolute confidence that instills makes the combination of rider and biker far more than the sum of a spec sheet or some theoretical riding situation we might project those specs into.

(and you're talking to klaviator, who leaves folks in the dust on his sportcity 250 scoot. come ON. this entire sport is about the relationship between man and machine!)

there's no magical matrix to solve to determine the best bike for anyone and what they want from the hobby. the only answer is to get out and ride, and if the bike is holding you back in one way or another, modify it or get a different one!
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quasigentrified screwed with this post 02-10-2014 at 11:07 AM
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Old 02-10-2014, 11:07 AM   #168
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Ever read any Magazine comparisons between sportbikes. They often have different riders ride them all on the track and compare results. Very seldom do all the riders go the fastest on the same bike. As quasigentrified posted, it really comes down to the relationship between man and machine.

Or how about all those examples when a racer changes teams and bikes and suddenly becomes much better, or much worse?

And speaking of Valentino Rossi, does he even ride on the street? If he did, how do you know what he would prefer? Maybe, since he gets his fill of riding fast on the track he would prefer a Harley.
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Old 02-10-2014, 11:11 AM   #169
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Never mind the idea of Valentino riding a Harley. it appears he has the same taste in bikes as I do

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Old 02-10-2014, 08:26 PM   #170
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Both of you are explaining well what I'm talking about. That's exactly why the rider has to be excluded when comparing bikes. He makes way too much of a difference.
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Old 02-10-2014, 09:18 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
Both of you are explaining well what I'm talking about. That's exactly why the rider has to be excluded when comparing bikes. He makes way too much of a difference.
What you suggest is impossible unless you want to compare bikes by only comparing the spec sheets. I have yet to see a bike riding down the road without a rider on it.
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Old 02-10-2014, 09:51 PM   #172
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I have yet to see a bike riding down the road without a rider on it.
It would be fun to watch, no matter the size of it.
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Old 02-10-2014, 10:08 PM   #173
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It would be fun to watch, no matter the size of it.
I have seen a car going down the road without a driver. Two guys were working on a VW Bug when it started rolling down a hill with the two guys chasing it. It rolled right into a busy street and into the side of a bus.
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Old 02-11-2014, 06:57 AM   #174
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OK, at that point we should define what's "better". For me it means that the bike delivers a higher performance. Related to power, performance mainly means harder acceleration.
If acceleration is all that matters then a vmax is the best bike.

Most would say that cornering has at least some value. There is always a trade off for cornering by adding acceleration (given the same price point/style of bike).

Some people want to trade off more acceleration for cornering, some people less. That is it.

Some people want both at different times so get multiple bikes.
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Old 02-11-2014, 07:31 AM   #175
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well an S1000RR corners AND accelerates pretty well....

But on the other hand, big sportsbikes, the whole class has almost gone into hibernation, their sales have plummeted almost everywhere. As if people were now buying bikes, that make more sense, than a liter sportsbike does.
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Old 02-11-2014, 08:03 AM   #176
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Most would say that cornering has at least some value. There is always a trade off for cornering by adding acceleration (given the same price point/style of bike).
Of course the better the more expensive. I do fully understand if someone doesn't want to spend the money, but still the bike with acceleration AND cornering is better than the bike with cornering only.

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big sportsbikes, the whole class has almost gone into hibernation, their sales have plummeted almost everywhere.
Source?
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Old 02-11-2014, 08:22 AM   #177
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Of course the better the more expensive. I do fully understand if someone doesn't want to spend the money, but still the bike with acceleration AND cornering is better than the bike with cornering only.



Source?
You seem to think little engines can't accelerate? Some of them do, quite well. Geared properly there isn't much difference in acceleration from a bigger bike with it's tall gears. You do have to shift more.

What they don't do well is the high top speed.
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Old 02-11-2014, 08:49 AM   #178
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The possible amount of acceleration with a given power and mass is a physical fact. You can't betray physics by changing the gearing.
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Old 02-11-2014, 08:58 AM   #179
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well an S1000RR corners AND accelerates pretty well....

But on the other hand, big sportsbikes, the whole class has almost gone into hibernation, their sales have plummeted almost everywhere. As if people were now buying bikes, that make more sense, than a liter sportsbike does.
That is because liter sportbikes are more powerful than the WSB super bikes and AMA super bikes when I first got my license. The liter class bikes are almost universally capable of 100mph in first gear and top out at or around 200mph.

......these are not to be taken lightly. Even in a controlled setting the liters are so mindbendingly fast that people are straying from them.
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Old 02-11-2014, 08:59 AM   #180
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The possible amount of acceleration with a given power and mass is a physical fact. You can't betray physics by changing the gearing.
Nor can you deny them. Gearing is what makes a bike go. All of my smaller bikes are quick as shit, none will go much over 100mph, if that. 0 - 60 or 70 mph as quickly as I could ever want. Wheelieing fools, the lot of them. Except the DR200, it's not very quick, but perhaps the most fun of all. It makes up for it in cornering. Always the biggest grin when riding that one.
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