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Old 02-07-2014, 03:06 PM   #76
JohnCW
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Haven't read all the posts so sorry if already covered.

I have both a large and small 250cc dual-sport bike. The big bike is great for high speed week-end country runs, but the small bike is far better as a city commuter. The big bike can only do one thing better in the city, accelerate away from the start at lights, only to wait at the next red light.

I can get to work faster on the 250cc bike, sticking it up the gaps in stationary traffic is much easier, easy to slot into a crowed bike parking place, etc. It is just heaps more fun in the urban jungle.
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Old 02-07-2014, 11:16 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Pecha72 View Post
If bigger means heavier, then the heavier bike΄s tyres will need to have more grip than a lighter bike, to be able to go around a turn as fast.
No. They need the same grip. To achieve that, the surface pressure has to be the same, what's no problem since heavier bikes normally have bigger tyres and increase the flat spot by their higher mass. Long story short, mass doesn't influence cornering speed.

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Originally Posted by Pecha72 View Post
And if bigger means bigger engine displacement, then forces created by engine rotation are bigger, means the bike won΄t change direction as easily.
That's what I said. One needs more force, that's the only difference, but both bikes are equally fast through the corner.

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Originally Posted by tkent02 View Post
Even with no weight difference, no power difference, no other differences at all, the shorter wheelbase bike will out corner the longer wheelbase one. It will turn sharper, faster with less lean angle, and will change from left to right or right to left much quicker. It's just physics.
That's relevant for something very tight like a kart or Gymkhana track. Not for the compared to that wide corners of public roads. (With the one exception of very tight switchbacks.)
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Old 02-08-2014, 04:21 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
No. They need the same grip. To achieve that, the surface pressure has to be the same, what's no problem since heavier bikes normally have bigger tyres and increase the flat spot by their higher mass. Long story short, mass doesn't influence cornering speed.
funny then, why smaller capacity racing bikes can often go around a track not much slower than much bigger & more powerful bikes.

Back in the days of 2-strokes, 250cc GP-bikes could at some track get very close to the laptimes of 500cc GP-bikes, that had double horsepower, and about 50km/h more top speed. Looked to me like 250's went around the bends a LOT faster.
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Old 02-08-2014, 04:51 AM   #79
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I have owned large bike and small bikes. They were all fun but overall the small bikes have been more fun. This is both on and off road. The fact is that I ride all my bikes off the pavement even if they are street bikes. Most large bikes are pure overkill on the roads I prefer to ride. While it is possible to ride a large powerful bike fast on a tight twisty road, for the most part the riders aren't capable of doing it. I have passed many slow riders on 150+ hp sport bikes on 250-350 singles. Sure, with a fast rider they would have left me in the dust but the majority of riders out there can't come close to the capabilities of their bikes.

I have known many people who owned multiple bikes. In most cases they were faster on their smaller, lighter and less powerful bikes. Personally, I went from an FJ1100 to a EX500 many years ago and was much faster on the EX.

Off road I was much faster on my KDX200 than on my 350 or 650 thumpers.

I enjoy exploring when I go riding. There are just some places I won't take a large bike for fear of getting stuck. Take a sub 300 lb bike down a trail and you can always find a way to turn around if the going gets too tough. 500+ lbs........good luck.

My next "adventure" bike will most likely be a 250cc single set up to go touring. I took a 2100 mile trip on a 250 a couple of years ago and it did just fine.
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Old 02-08-2014, 05:32 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Pecha72 View Post
funny then, why smaller capacity racing bikes can often go around a track not much slower than much bigger & more powerful bikes.

Back in the days of 2-strokes, 250cc GP-bikes could at some track get very close to the laptimes of 500cc GP-bikes, that had double horsepower, and about 50km/h more top speed. Looked to me like 250's went around the bends a LOT faster.
1. Did you just say that a small bike is faster than a big bike, because it's not much slower?
2. That it looks to you if small GP bikes were faster around bends is because they use a wider line, while the big bikes use a shorter line, because they have the power to accelerate in a shorter time than they would have used to go the long way round at the higher speed line the small bikes use.
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Old 02-08-2014, 05:40 AM   #81
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Laws of physics work different in Germany, I guess...
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Old 02-08-2014, 05:42 AM   #82
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"Did you just say that a small bike is faster than a big bike
"

errrmmm.... No.
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Old 02-08-2014, 05:55 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
mass doesn't influence cornering speed.
Try turning a container ship
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Old 02-08-2014, 05:56 AM   #84
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Heavier bikes have to lean more to obtain the same corner speed. A lighter bike will take a wider line and carry more corner speed not because they can, but because it is the fastest way to get around the track. On a heavier bike, usually with a more powerful engine, that line may not be available.
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Old 02-08-2014, 07:27 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by BDMJ View Post
Heavier bikes have to lean more to obtain the same corner speed. A lighter bike will take a wider line and carry more corner speed not because they can, but because it is the fastest way to get around the track. On a heavier bike, usually with a more powerful engine, that line may not be available.
It's available but not the fastest for the more powerful bike.
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Old 02-08-2014, 07:37 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post


Nice joke.
Take it you're lacking in physics knowledge... edit: also for that comment about mass not affecting cornering.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
OK, if you like to frequently pull levers, that's a reason. I'm all in for automatics. And while most of the others aren't, they nonetheless are complaining about too little low end torque and having to shift too much.
So why don't you ride one of those Aprilia Manas or a scooter? I had a blast riding my old MB5, yes I wanted a bit more power, maybe a CR80 in it, but it was more fun to ride hard than many bikes I'd ridden when selling bikes. Same when off road with bikes, the 125 rewarded good riding. As I said, I find it fun to shift and work the bike, engine and all.


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Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
That's true, but it's true as well that accelerating hard up to 100...120mph on roads other than the Autobahn, restricted to 62mph, is as much fun.
Yeah, all two shifts... and I'm still doing 80! Again, here in most states doing 20 mph over the speed limits is frowned upon and a buck twenty gets you possibly hand cuffed a ride to the jail along with your bike being towed. Boy is that fun! Just can't wait to do it.

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Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
I'm talking on road. There you have agility, good braking and high corner speed with the big bike as well. And in addition you have power.
It's not as if you had to exchange the one for the other, you just can have both. Off road is an other deal of course.
I kept riding up the tail pipe of my buddy on his ZX14 on KY SR 32, because it was handcuffing him. The power is too much for the tightness of the road corners and the extra weight makes braking and turning more effort. I could have passed him almost anywhere with my dinky 550, and he is no slouch on pavement. Either one of us could have passed both bikes with our dual sport/supermotos.

These are not highways in the sense of the shortest distance from A to B. These are the winding roads in the mountains that lead from farm to farm and town to town as the horse drawn wagons made them in the 1700-1800s. They just eventually got gravel and then paved and made state routes. They ain't the Alps, but they're a heck of a lot of fun when a bike is light, quick, and agile.

Then there are the actual secondary paved roads that are tighter yet making dual sport/supermoto bikes king of the hill. The eastern part of the U.S. in the Appalachian mountains is riddled with those paved former wagon trails that led west. They wind up and down the mountains and hills.


If all you ride are the roads that reward big inch/power engines you are missing a lot... at least here in the eastern U.S.
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Old 02-08-2014, 07:45 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by hscrugby View Post
One thing to remember that everyone seems to forget, race bikes are friggin light... They weigh less than a lot of the dual sports mentioned here, and not much more than that pig of a tw200 you mention.. the busa's etc yea, they are heavy.
But a modern 600 or liter bike is VERY flick able with unlimited acceleration and braking. I have ridden 450 sumo's, (and I have a 450 ktm) and there are very very few places that you can be as fast on one as on a modern RR..
that said, for adventure purposes, light enough to pick up, heavy enough to not break with the luggage you need...
My 450 with more oil, and a sub frame...
I don't ever want to try and deal with a bike even as heavy as my dr650 was in the dirt again. My CBR954 was lighter than my dr650...

That said, the KTM 640s, husky te 610 all seem to get it right to me..
I think for any type of slab, 50-60hp is the absolute minimum. And any "long trip" I can think of is going to end up with some stretches where you'd want to be able to go faster than 70 mph... And they don't weigh TOO much...
Wouldn't you say some of those very few places would be the back roads that are similar, but not as intense, as Deal's Gap? I have to believe, and have been told, there are many of those back roads in NC and much of the Appalachians, much like we have up here in the western side of the range. One such road in Ohio is SR536, which has corners that are as tough as those on Deal's Gap from what some have said. Difference is there aren't quite as many, the traffic is lighter, some run off isn't as good, but best of all, the speed limit is at 55 mph again with little or no traffic. It is a true supermoto type road rewarding light strong bikes that can hold corner speed and be tossed about like a motocrosser.

We resign ourselves, due to depth of wallet, to not go over around 60-65 here in Ohio. Besides when we do want to do so, the KLX650 and Drz400 will do around 80-85 when we want quite easily. Our technique in riding is to go for the gusto - get off those roads that reward speed and try to find the ones that reward skill at lower speed in tighter corners. For us those corners are the fun. Then there are the gravel ones that are even more fun.

I'm selling the street bike and putting 17s on the 650, and replacing the street bike with a 250 dual sport. The 650 is just way too much fun. I'll suffer a bit on the open roads, try to get off them as quickly as possible, and continue to enjoy what we have for the past 17 years now since going more dual sport.
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Old 02-08-2014, 07:55 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Bud Tugly View Post
So much of this depends on where you ride, and that's why we'll never all agree. If you live where there's a lot of high speed multi-lane roads and your off-roading consists of mostly gravel roads or wide open spaces then big is good. OTOH folks whose riding involves things like boulder-strewn single track, twisty trails through thick woods, deep mud, soft sand, etc. and rarely go on roads other than quiet secondary highways are going to favor small and light unless they are so talented that they can horse a big bike through that stuff.

Dual sports in the 350-650cc range come close to being the perfect compromise but the drawback for many folks is that they are only mediocre at doing things like single track or long freeway trips. That's why we each may need at least 3 bikes: a big long-range powerhouse, a nice light woods-weapon, and then a compromise bike for the times you just want to meander.

And that is the discussion. when and why those of us who like smaller bikes like them. What the attraction is. I'm thinking if I lived in the flat lands of some states I'd probably do some tank or maybe not even a motorcycle. For me straight/flat is boring and not why I ride. So my points all are relating to tight winding roads I love and what I can do within the limits of that one sheriff or state patrol I may pass on some paved road. Plus what I enjoy doing - wringing out the bike a bit. That has always made the smaller bikes far more fun for me. Probably 80% or more of the sportbike riders can't ride well enough to keep up with a decent (not great, just good) rider who can wring out a 400-650 dual sport/supermoto on a road where the straights just don't reward 100 hp, but rather ability to keep it cooking in a corner.
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Ever get lost? You know, that good kind of lost - come to a dirt road intersection and you have no idea where you are or which way to turn? I like when that happens!

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95 KLX650C w/Vulcan piston bigbore, Now an 09 KLX250S, selling my 90 Zephyr 550
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Old 02-08-2014, 08:00 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by klaviator View Post

My next "adventure" bike will most likely be a 250cc single set up to go touring. I took a 2100 mile trip on a 250 a couple of years ago and it did just fine.

FWIW, one thing some of the riders here and other forums have mentioned, should you do the 250, is an ATV seat pad that WalMart sells for like $20. I think it is made by Coleman or someone like that. They strap the pad on and it adds both cushion and width. Function over form, butt comfort wins over butt ugly in this case. I have one laying in the garage.
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Ever get lost? You know, that good kind of lost - come to a dirt road intersection and you have no idea where you are or which way to turn? I like when that happens!

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95 KLX650C w/Vulcan piston bigbore, Now an 09 KLX250S, selling my 90 Zephyr 550
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Old 02-08-2014, 08:02 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Pecha72 View Post
"Did you just say that a small bike is faster than a big bike
"

errrmmm.... No.
Ahhhh, but it may be. Depends on where speed is measured. Seems some are faster in corners or under differing conditions. Right?
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Ever get lost? You know, that good kind of lost - come to a dirt road intersection and you have no idea where you are or which way to turn? I like when that happens!

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95 KLX650C w/Vulcan piston bigbore, Now an 09 KLX250S, selling my 90 Zephyr 550
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