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Old 02-08-2014, 09:08 AM   #91
markk53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
1. Did you just say that a small bike is faster than a big bike, because it's not much slower?
2. That it looks to you if small GP bikes were faster around bends is because they use a wider line, while the big bikes use a shorter line, because they have the power to accelerate in a shorter time than they would have used to go the long way round at the higher speed line the small bikes use.

I don't think they just looked faster, they ran faster. By the way, if your point is so valid, wouldn't it apply to those really tight tracks? If the big power is faster everywhere why aren't they faster there? Why aren't they able to lap a kart track faster than as a small bike on a kart track.

That is the total point. If I ride where the reward is in cornering speed at a fun rate and that is what I enjoy, why would I want a bike that fights me in tighter corners and has so much power as to have difficulty braking down into those tight corners when compared to a lighter bike that happens to have less power? That is why some of us like small bikes. That simple.

Much like some like big inch bikes just to go fast and run fast on sweeping roadways. We avoid those roads because the speed is too costly if caught.
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Old 02-08-2014, 09:20 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
FWIW, one thing some of the riders here and other forums have mentioned, should you do the 250, is an ATV seat pad that WalMart sells for like $20. I think it is made by Coleman or someone like that. They strap the pad on and it adds both cushion and width. Function over form, butt comfort wins over butt ugly in this case. I have one laying in the garage.
You mean something like this?



I have about a half inch of foam under the ATV pad and may add some more.

BTW, I have run my XT through Deals Gap and it works great, Semi Knobbies and all. On a really tight road this thing is way more fun than a heavy sportbike.

And yes, there are roads in the Smokies much tighter than Deals Gap.



.

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Old 02-08-2014, 09:25 AM   #93
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at least 250GP 2-smokers did usually carry more corner speed than 500GP's. Otherwise their lap times would have been way slower, which was not the case. Remember the 500's quite simply murdered them on any sort of straight.

Actually the Sachsenring in Germany is probably the tightest track they used to go to. Be interesting to compare 250 / 500 there.
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Old 02-08-2014, 10:55 AM   #94
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So why don't you ride one of those Aprilia Manas or a scooter?
As far as I know there's no Mana or Scooter with 170hp stock like my automatic motorcycle has and correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the Mana has no full automatic mode, only an automated clutch?

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Again, here in most states doing 20 mph over the speed limits is frowned upon and a buck twenty gets you possibly hand cuffed a ride to the jail along with your bike being towed. Boy is that fun! Just can't wait to do it.
20mph over are 120 euros and 3 "points" here. 18 points means loss of licence. More than 25mph over adds 1 month of prohibtion to drive anything motorized at all.
The thing is... there aren't enough controls that it would matter what happens if they get you. But even if, I see that's a valid point for not choosing the big bike, but it does not make the small bike more fun.

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I kept riding up the tail pipe of my buddy on his ZX14 on KY SR 32, because it was handcuffing him. The power is too much for the tightness of the road corners
There's no thing like "too much power" on paved roads. That's rider error. Just be gentle on the throttle or shift a gear up.

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the extra weight makes braking and turning more effort
That's what I'm saying all the time. It needs only more force, that's the only difference. Just a nice workout.

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If all you ride are the roads that reward big inch/power engines you are missing a lot... at least here in the eastern U.S.
I'd say you are missing a lot when when you need to search - and stay on - the smallest of roads to have fun with a small bike, while I can have fun on every road. The small backroads, the well maintained federal roads (for me the best because I don't need to worry about oncoming traffic or debris on the road or way too short lines of sight to go fast) or the highways on my way to the before mentioned road types (or my way to/from work for that matter).

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a road where the straights just don't reward 100 hp
That would be a road where one doesn't reach 60mph (maybe 70mph on a light 100hp bike - I tend to think in the sports touring class because I like to have it comfortable so I always need some more horses to compensate for the weight) between two corners. Again, I think to be restricted to these few roads to have fun means missing a lot.

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If the big power is faster everywhere why aren't they faster there?
Did I say much power means being faster everywhere? Maybe I wasn't clear enough. Let's take the 100hp or say 80kW as an example. With a weight/power ratio of maybe 4kg/kW (a VFR 800 with rider for example - the Duke 690 is near that 4kg/kW mark as well) you reach an acceleration of 1g roughly up to 50mph maybe 55mph. If speeds are lower than that there will be no advantages to having more power like on a VFR 1200, but as well no disadvantages besides needing more effort to move the big girl around. It's just unused excess power.
If it gets even slower like on a kart track, wheelbase comes into play so the bigger bike can't anymore use every line as it just doesn't make a 2m radius turn. And the unused excess power doesn't help to compensate that. But public roads just aren't that tight.
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Old 02-08-2014, 11:41 AM   #95
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Isle of Man TT outright lap record is currently 17:11.572, ridden by JohnMcGuinness on a CBR1000RR.

Can you guess, what the lap record for the Supersport 600 class is?
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Old 02-08-2014, 11:44 AM   #96
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These are not highways in the sense of the shortest distance from A to B. These are the winding roads in the mountains that lead from farm to farm and town to town as the horse drawn wagons made them in the 1700-1800s. They just eventually got gravel and then paved and made state routes. They ain't the Alps, but they're a heck of a lot of fun when a bike is light, quick, and agile.

Then there are the actual secondary paved roads that are tighter yet making dual sport/supermoto bikes king of the hill. The eastern part of the U.S. in the Appalachian mountains is riddled with those paved former wagon trails that led west. They wind up and down the mountains and hills.


If all you ride are the roads that reward big inch/power engines you are missing a lot... at least here in the eastern U.S.
Trying to explain this to someone who hasn't ridden these kinds of roads or who is hung up on having big horsepower is like trying to explain why you ride to someone who doesn't. It's basically a waste of time.
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Old 02-08-2014, 12:11 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Pecha72 View Post
Isle of Man TT outright lap record is currently 17:11.572, ridden by JohnMcGuinness on a CBR1000RR.

Can you guess, what the lap record for the Supersport 600 class is?
As one might expect, Michael Dunlop last year was 20 seconds slower on the CBR600RR than on the CBR1000RR.
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Old 02-08-2014, 12:27 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
As one might expect, Michael Dunlop last year was 20 seconds slower on the CBR600RR than on the CBR1000RR.
Not so bad, when one lap is almost 38 miles long, and that ΄track΄ has a lot of straights, where they keep it absolutely pinned for a long time, the supersport bike with 140hp gets maybe 270-280 top speed, the superbike with 200-215hp goes 320 kms per hour.
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Old 02-08-2014, 12:40 PM   #99
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"not so bad" still is slower
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Old 02-08-2014, 12:51 PM   #100
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Let's discuss the trade offs of big bikes vs. small bikes during true Adventure travel, where a lot of rough dirt roads are involved.
This was the OP's original question. I'd say that lap times around the IOM are pretty irrelevant. A 250cc dual sport will beat a 1000cc sport bike easily when you get on a rough dirt road. Even on many of the paved roads I ride, I'd still take the 250cc dual sport. Many of the most fun paved roads I have ridden had less than perfect pavement, really tight curves, and often became dirt roads at some point.

For me adventure riding means I don't turn around just because the pavement ends, even when I'm on a street bike.
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Old 02-08-2014, 12:54 PM   #101
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"not so bad" still is slower
yes, it is about 2% slower.

Dunno what you expect, a 140bhp bike to beat a 200bhp bike on a track, where your average speed is much higher than any current GP track,for example?

To me that shows, how fast a 600 actually can be on the corners as opposed to a slower 1000. And that's not because of weight alone, the masses inside the engine are also important. The bigger bike is not as nimble.
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Old 02-08-2014, 01:20 PM   #102
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For really tough ADV riding conditions, where the surface is very loose, lighter bike is almost always better.

That said, if you like, you can go around the planet and practically never leave tarmac.
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Old 02-08-2014, 01:45 PM   #103
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This was the OP's original question. I'd say that lap times around the IOM are pretty irrelevant. A 250cc dual sport will beat a 1000cc sport bike easily when you get on a rough dirt road.
And we agree there. The whole mess here started when I said in my first post it's simple - rough dirt, the lighter the better - street, the more powerful the better.

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Dunno what you expect
Exactly what you showed. The more powerful bike is faster on a public road.
What do YOU expect?

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To me that shows, how fast a 600 actually can be on the corners as opposed to a 1000.
Yes, exactly as fast that is. As I'm stating all the time.
Have a look on a test done by a German motorcycle magazine on a course with an average speed of 34mph, a top speed of around 70mph and only one part where acceleration is relevant.

[IMG]m.motorradonline.de/sixcms/media.php/11/thumbnails/Messwerte_Vergleich_Handling-Motorraeder.jpg.2288335.jpg[/IMG]

Again we see what I'm stating all the time, the smaller bike does not get away through the corners. It's just physics.
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Old 02-08-2014, 02:15 PM   #104
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OK, take a S1000rr, R6, 690 Duke, R1200GS and ride them on the typical Public roads found in the Smoky mountains.

Which one will be the fastest?





The one with the fastest rider.

The rider means much more than the machine on the roads I like to ride.

But more importantly, which rider will have the most fun?

Again, it depends on the rider.

Me, I'd take the 690 Duke or R1200 GS over either sportbike on the roads I like to ride.

Which one would be fastest with equal riders?

Who cares. I'm riding on public roads not a racetrack.
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Old 02-08-2014, 02:35 PM   #105
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And we agree there. The whole mess here started when I said in my first post it's simple - rough dirt, the lighter the better - street, the more powerful the better.

Except you can't use all that power at all around here without going to prison. However, a bike that is light and nimble is rewarding everywhere as well as being less tiring to ride in the twisties.
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