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Old 02-14-2014, 10:46 AM   #121
Gripsteruser
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scootrboi View Post
we hear a lot about the superiority of the Spitfire over the Me109, but Spitfires struggled with carburetors that would cut out in a dive, while Messerschmitts had fuel injection. 1940s!
Aircraft fuel injection bears only slight resemblence to current motor vehicle FI.

I was astonished and appalled when I found out how airplane injection 'works'

But still- this tactical advantage was true.
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Old 02-14-2014, 02:57 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Gripsteruser View Post
Aircraft fuel injection bears only slight resemblence to current motor vehicle FI.

I was astonished and appalled when I found out how airplane injection 'works'

But still- this tactical advantage was true.
Rolls Royce always answered the call for more power.the merlin was nearly twice as powerful at the end of the war,not counting the griffon.
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Old 02-14-2014, 03:00 PM   #123
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I think few of us would argue that the modern fuel injected internal combustion engine is much much more reliable than its 50s and 60s cousin,both in car and motorcycle form
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Old 02-14-2014, 04:46 PM   #124
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I think few of us would argue that the modern fuel injected internal combustion engine is much much more reliable than its 50s and 60s cousin,both in car and motorcycle form
No one would disagree because 50' and 60's manufacturing standards, fuels, and lubricants were poor. Then the Japanese arrived on the scene and turned the world on its head with improved design of existing concepts, and modern manufacturing methods. If you were to say "much more reliable than it's 70's cousins" I'd disagree. I had new 1970's Japanese motorcycles and they were 100% reliable. That's the very reason they drove every other manufacturer into near extinction.

Longevity, a close cousin of reliability, has continued to improve primarily due to incremental developments of existing technologies, improved manufacturing methods, and lubricants. It is not the result of some 'step-change' in technology. There is really not a lot of major design difference between an I4 of the 1970's and an I4 of today. Even compared to a Model T ford, they've just rearranged the 'bits'.

The introduction of a 'step-change' may actually reduce reliability for a number of years till the bugs are ironed out. This is exactly what happen when Toyota installed a common-rail system on their 3 liter turbo diesels several years ago. One of the most reliable engines you could get was turned into an expensive unreliable disaster. I believe the problems have now been largely rectified.

Manufactures have a long tradition of releasing 'new technology' onto the market for competitive reasons long before it has proven itself. They effectively make the first movers unpaid test bunnies. In any make/model of car or bike the last before the "completely new redesigned" model is always the one to buy. There'll always be people who what to have the latest and greatest, but you can pay dearly for this privilege. Anyone buy a first gen iPhone?

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Old 02-14-2014, 08:01 PM   #125
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No one would disagree because 50' and 60's manufacturing standards, fuels, and lubricants were poor. Then the Japanese arrived on the scene and turned the world on its head with improved design of existing concepts, and modern manufacturing methods. If you were to say "much more reliable than it's 70's cousins" I'd disagree. I had new 1970's Japanese motorcycles and they were 100% reliable. That's the very reason they drove every other manufacturer into near extinction.

Longevity, a close cousin of reliability, has continued to improve primarily due to incremental developments of existing technologies, improved manufacturing methods, and lubricants. It is not the result of some 'step-change' in technology. There is really not a lot of major design difference between an I4 of the 1970's and an I4 of today. Even compared to a Model T ford, they've just rearranged the 'bits'.

The introduction of a 'step-change' may actually reduce reliability for a number of years till the bugs are ironed out. This is exactly what happen when Toyota installed a common-rail system on their 3 liter turbo diesels several years ago. One of the most reliable engines you could get was turned into an expensive unreliable disaster. I believe the problems have now been largely rectified.

Manufactures have a long tradition of releasing 'new technology' onto the market for competitive reasons long before it has proven itself. They effectively make the first movers unpaid test bunnies. In any make/model of car or bike the last before the "completely new redesigned" model is always the one to buy. There'll always be people who what to have the latest and greatest, but you can pay dearly for this privilege. Anyone buy a first gen iPhone?
All true,but I think the epitomy of reliability and longevity will be something
Much more "modern" than "older"
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Old 02-19-2014, 06:25 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by randyo View Post
motorcycles are a luxury cause they are money pits, your always replacing something, even if its not an engine part, chains, sprockets and more tires, fork oil, seals

yes, fuel injection is more reliable than the carb that was on the bike 30 years ago, but so is the carb that would be built today, the modern carb is probably more reliable, it may not be as efficient, but efficiency and reliability are 2 different subjects, just one sensor among several has a glitch and if your lucky the FI goes into limp mode to get you home
LOL!

On most bikes the only sensor that will keep the engine from running is the crank position sensor (the ignition trigger), failure of other sensors will result in limp mode. In fact, that is how you can find out a faulty sensor without reading codes or using a multimeter, just unplug one at a time.
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Old 02-23-2014, 12:57 PM   #127
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Now, don't burst Randyo's bubble.

He insists on ranting about the unreliable EFI on his year-round on salty roads ridden V-Strom 1000, when he could buy a $200 diagnostic tool that would tell him exactly which sensor was acting up due to corroded connections.
A diagnostic tool with real-time logging during riding.

A one time $200 investment is nothing in a bike budget.
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Old 02-24-2014, 06:02 AM   #128
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yep, this guy should probably get rid of his Vstrom and its unreliable for winter riding FI, and go back to carbd bikes, that he was a lot happier with.

When you've got tens of thousands of bikes in circulation, in time, somewhere, somebody is gonna find an environment, that is atypical enough to run into problems.
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Old 02-24-2014, 06:33 AM   #129
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Live Free or Die

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecha72 View Post
yep, this guy should probably get rid of his Vstrom and its unreliable for winter riding FI, and go back to carbd bikes, that he was a lot happier with.

When you've got tens of thousands of bikes in circulation, in time, somewhere, somebody is gonna find an environment, that is atypical enough to run into problems.
You must understand the pressure of living in New Hampshire. There are signs all over saying 'Live Free or Die.' The man is fighting for his life.
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Old 02-24-2014, 09:58 AM   #130
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Meh, you guys are having a lot of fun. . . . I agree the new tech is nice when it works, but it can be more difficult to diagnoses and repair than some portray here. Last summer my '09 Versys was in the shop for 5 weeks and $1000 while the techs chased various codes and eventually ended up replacing a portion of the wiring harness. And, no--I don't ride it in the salt!

No worries, though. My '99 Honda w/ the carbs was running fine, so no moto-withdrawal!

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Old 02-24-2014, 10:39 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by GDI View Post
Meh, you guys are having a lot of fun. . . . I agree the new tech is nice when it works, but it can be more difficult to diagnoses and repair than some portray here. Last summer my '09 Versys was in the shop for 5 weeks and $1000 while the techs chased various codes and eventually ended up replacing a portion of the wiring harness. And, no--I don't ride it in the salt!

No worries, though. My '99 Honda w/ the carbs was running fine, so no moto-withdrawal!

GDI
Uhm...

You can't replace "a portion of the wiring harness". Seriously, you need to find another shop. You get a "code", check the sensor, if the sensor tests OK (very well explained how to test it on the service manual) it's either the wiring or the ECU. It's pretty effin simple. The "worst" kind of EFI failures to troubleshoot are when you dont' get a code, but even then, checking all the sensors is pretty darn easy.

Most of the people complaining about EFI are complaining because they haven't bothered to learn how to troubleshoot it.

When the TPS on my SV1000 went out I had tested all the sensors and ECU (I cheated, I had 2 SVs in the garage) in less time than it would have taken me to take out the carbs out of my XJR1300. FYI, the TPS is the first, and only, electronic failure I've had in a motorcycle, and it was only annoying, as the TPS worked just fine at high RPMs.
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Old 02-24-2014, 10:44 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by GDI View Post
Meh, you guys are having a lot of fun. . . . I agree the new tech is nice when it works, but it can be more difficult to diagnoses and repair than some portray here. Last summer my '09 Versys was in the shop for 5 weeks and $1000 while the techs chased various codes and eventually ended up replacing a portion of the wiring harness. And, no--I don't ride it in the salt!

No worries, though. My '99 Honda w/ the carbs was running fine, so no moto-withdrawal!

GDI
What on earth made you think that a shop tech can find a fault like that?

Fault finding sucks for them, as they'd much rather be doing regular servicing, billing 2 hours per 60 minutes spent.

Fault codes merely tell you which areas you should be logging real-time values for while riding.

Stuff like that is what internet forums are for, places where people who actually give a fook about a certain kind of bike can meet and discuss problem areas particular to that model do death.
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Old 02-24-2014, 11:18 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Süsser Tod View Post
Uhm...

You can't replace "a portion of the wiring harness".
Sure you can. Why would you think otherwise?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Süsser Tod View Post
Seriously, you need to find another shop. You get a "code", check the sensor, if the sensor tests OK (very well explained how to test it on the service manual) it's either the wiring or the ECU.
Not actually true, but a common assumption. A sensor can be an indication of a mechanical problem. If the sensor tests good but is throwing a code, then you have to look at what mechanical issues could cause that code. If you know how to troubleshoot then the OBD does make it easier, but many thousands of dollars are wasted by techs assuming that the OBD tells them everything they need to know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Süsser Tod View Post
Most of the people complaining about EFI are complaining because they haven't bothered to learn how to troubleshoot it.
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Old 02-24-2014, 12:10 PM   #134
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I'm starting to sound like a whiney bitch. Weigh in - be brutal - I like it when it hurts.

I have one modern motorcycle; a 2002 Aprilia Caponord, two BMW's, 1982 and 1965, two Royal Enfields, 1966 and 1958, and a BSA, 1970.

If I had to get rid of all but one, I'd keep the 1965 BMW R69S.

It's the one I have the most fun on, even if it's the second slowest of the bunch (in terms of total performance capability).

It's reasonably comfortable to take trips on, with the right tires, it can handle anything that any modern "adventure bike" can handle, and is a lot easier to ride in the rough than my Caponord or a modern BMW GS.

It's also spent the least amount of time broken down (none) of any of them. It's the easiest to service, and has required the least amount of routine service (along with the other BMW), with only fresh tires, oil changes, valve adjustments, and occasional steering/suspension service, all of which I can do myself easily.


I know this doesn't answer your question, but if I had to own only one bike for every type of riding I do, this would be it.
Oh, and even though two of the Britbikes are quicker, and one has a higher top speed, it would run all three of them into the ground if a lot of distance had to be covered in as short a time as possible.
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Old 02-24-2014, 12:33 PM   #135
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Quote:
Uhm...

You can't replace "a portion of the wiring harness". Seriously, you need to find another shop.
You might think that, but they did! The tech had isolated the problem to one particular connector. Rather than replace the whole wiring harness with new, which would have been more costly in terms of time and parts, they bought a used wiring harness off of a Kawasaki 650r Ninja. They cut the connector off and soldered it in place of the defective one on my bike. I've got the old, bad plug from my Versys and the used wiring harness (less that connector) from the 650r.

I'm quite happy with the shop. I trust them not only to get the bike repaired, but also to do so in the way that costs me the least.


Quote:
You get a "code", check the sensor, if the sensor tests OK (very well explained how to test it on the service manual) it's either the wiring or the ECU. It's pretty effin simple. The "worst" kind of EFI failures to troubleshoot are when you dont' get a code, but even then, checking all the sensors is pretty darn easy.

Most of the people complaining about EFI are complaining because they haven't bothered to learn how to troubleshoot it.
That actually sounds precisely like the step that they followed to fix my bike. The bike threw a code for bad TPS. I took bike in w/ a used TPS that they replaced. The bike started throwing another code indicating a bad ECU, so they got one in to replace it. But, that didn't fix it, so they traced it to one connector in the wiring harness. This whole process happened over the course of 5 weeks as I'd indicated. . . . I have torn down some carbs at different times on a few different bikes, but this electronic stuff is really more than I want to tackle. I was glad to have them do the work.

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