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Old 02-11-2014, 12:46 PM   #31
dwoodward
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Originally Posted by Pecha72 View Post
..then learn to brake hard AND steer, while you keep on braking, cos that could sometimes be very handy. With ABS, that's easier to do, ( without landing on your ear I mean).
Um. I'd really want to see what the DL650 owner's manual says about that, because I'm pretty sure it advises precisely NOT to do that.

Have not read the manual or ridden the bike, but anything except possibly the very latest ABS tech- and I mean, stuff not found on dealer floors- is not designed to deal with cornering forces at all.
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Old 02-11-2014, 01:01 PM   #32
tkent02
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Originally Posted by H96669 View Post
Is your rebound dampening adjustable???
Uh huh.
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Old 02-11-2014, 02:18 PM   #33
Pecha72
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Originally Posted by dwoodward View Post
Um. I'd really want to see what the DL650 owner's manual says about that, because I'm pretty sure it advises precisely NOT to do that.

Have not read the manual or ridden the bike, but anything except possibly the very latest ABS tech- and I mean, stuff not found on dealer floors- is not designed to deal with cornering forces at all.
Did I say you have to scrape the peg, and while doing this, slam the front brake on..?

So let me summarize: I΄m on my 3rd DL650 ABS now, you haven΄t ridden the bike, but out of the two of us, you know better than I do, what you can do with this bike (and its ABS), and what you cannot?
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Old 02-11-2014, 02:22 PM   #34
eakins
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when you are in an oh shit moment, you'll intellectually squeeze as hard as possible and you'll then know how the ABS truly works.
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Old 02-11-2014, 02:37 PM   #35
Pecha72
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Originally Posted by eakins View Post
when you are in an oh shit moment, you'll intellectually squeeze as hard as possible
Precisely. Even those, who THINK they can do better than that, 99% of them will still fail to get it right in that split second. Pretty hard to practice for that either, because when you know you΄ll practice braking, it΄s never really an oh shit moment, those will always jump on you, when you least expect.

That is why ABS will be standard on all road-going bikes.
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Old 02-11-2014, 03:01 PM   #36
jmq3rd
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Originally Posted by eakins View Post
when you are in an oh shit moment, you'll intellectually squeeze as hard as possible and you'll then know how the ABS truly works.
Depends on each person. I have never grabbed a fistful of brake in a panic. I've made plenty of OTHER mistakes while learning (freeze up and plow right off the trail/road, stand the bike up when I should lean more, etc). Even in the car, if I am in a panic stop, it is a conscious decision to push the brake down harder than my instincts tell me to. It's like "don't overdo it" is the instinct. Then again, for the most formative years of my dirt bike education, I didn't have brakes at all (literally - not installed in the bike). I know that has influenced my braking techniques, for better or worse. I did all of my braking with engine brake, sometimes holding in the kill switch since my KDX80 didn't have a lot of engine braking while running. I also had to wait at the top of the hills until everybody else was out of the way, because I needed a little runout room at the bottom.


Note - I am not claiming to be better than ABS, and I am not claiming that my reaction is better than anybody else's - but I am aware that it will put me in trouble when others are fine, and on the contrary I may be fine where others are in trouble.
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Old 02-11-2014, 03:19 PM   #37
tkent02
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Originally Posted by Pecha72 View Post

That is why ABS will be standard on all road-going bikes.
They better perfect it first.
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:28 PM   #38
Pecha72
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Originally Posted by tkent02 View Post
They better perfect it first.
It is never "perfect", as it is a technical system, and built by humans.

But try back-to-back a K100 BMW from the late 80's, and a S1000RR (..or any modern ABS on a bike for that matter) and you'll understand, how much it has developed in 25 years.

I'm sure ABS on cars was fiercely opposed at first, too. Like seat belts back in the day - people had driven cars without seat belts for how long, how on Earth had they managed to survive??
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:46 PM   #39
tkent02
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Originally Posted by Pecha72 View Post
It is never "perfect", as it is a technical system, and built by humans.

But try back-to-back a K100 BMW from the late 80's, and a S1000RR (..or any modern ABS on a bike for that matter) and you'll understand, how much it has developed in 25 years.

I'm sure ABS on cars was fiercely opposed at first, too. Like seat belts back in the day - people had driven cars without seat belts for how long, how on Earth had they managed to survive??
I have owned a K75 and a K100 with ABS, and a F800GS, an R1100RT, ridden a 1200GSA. Ridden a few other ABS equipped motorcycles. The ABS has improved, but it is no where near as good as ABS in a car 20 years ago.
Again, sometimes it won't allow braking at all. This is unacceptable.
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Old 02-12-2014, 12:01 AM   #40
Derbobs
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Originally Posted by jtw000 View Post
Some people like the computers to do all the work of riding a bike for them. Personally I think that's funny. If you need ABS you shouldn't be allowed on a bike. If you think you need it, you probably shouldn't be allowed to vote.


Some people still seem to think they can brake better without ABS. That is like saying letters are faster than email.
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Old 02-12-2014, 01:29 AM   #41
Pecha72
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Originally Posted by tkent02 View Post
Again, sometimes it won't allow braking at all. This is unacceptable.
I'm not saying that this is totally impossible.

But you are blowing it completely out of proportion. For one thing, different systems on different bikes will function differently.

I do believe in the freedom of choice, though, so I'm all for a 3-way switch (ON - Rear only - OFF) and also make that standard. Then the rider can choose what he/she wants to use.
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Old 02-12-2014, 01:58 AM   #42
Lep
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Originally Posted by ph0rk View Post
...

On any of my ABS bikes I have treated ABS engaging as a gotcha, "Dude, you screwed up" in nice, dry conditions. I treat it as a "Dude, you are so smart for buying this bike" in wet, slippery conditions
That's exactly how I view ABS.
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Old 02-12-2014, 03:03 AM   #43
jtw000
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Originally Posted by Pecha72 View Post
for example Honda, the biggest 2-wheel manufacturer on the planet, seems to fully disagree with you, since they have declared several years ago they will be equipping all their road-going models with ABS.

But they of course have not got a clue about anything related to bikes, they just design & build them..

That's ok, you let them tell you what to think and get your cash out for something that actually does you no good. I'd suggest you do some actual research and use your brain but I might as well tell you to formulate a logical argument.
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Old 02-12-2014, 03:05 AM   #44
jtw000
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Originally Posted by cliffy109 View Post
Based on your descriptions, I don't think the ABS is the problem.

I don't think you really understand. You hit a pothole, the brakes switch off. You hit the brakes on a polished road, the brakes switch off. I think that's a major problem.
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Old 02-12-2014, 03:32 AM   #45
PeterW
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Originally Posted by H96669 View Post
Find a steep gravel driveway just to see where you'll stop. May not be where you think.

But good on you to think braking practices, I do that almost everyday on the road in different situations.
It's not a BMW :).

The ABS on the DL works on gravel PROVIDED you aren't going too fast in the first place. But yes, practice, make up your own mind. I ride fairly conservatively and on average it's better than me. The BIG gain is that you can hit the brakes stupid hard without immediately falling down.

Learn to back off and try again when the ABS engages, maximum braking is just before it starts to shudder - it's a lot cheaper finding that point with an ABS equipped bike.

Pete
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