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Old 02-12-2014, 03:07 AM   #46
Pecha72
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Originally Posted by jtw000 View Post
That's ok, you let them tell you what to think and get your cash out for something that actually does you no good. I'd suggest you do some actual research and use your brain but I might as well tell you to formulate a logical argument.
Ha ha. You really are a funny guy!

I've now got 22 yrs on bikes, first 15 without ABS, and then with it. For road-riding, there's no going back for me. I don't depend on it to save my ass, or take more risks because of it. But also I don't have severe disillusions about how I can handle braking on an emergency situation. Feel free to choose whatever you want, and whatever you think you'll be safest with.
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Old 02-12-2014, 03:12 AM   #47
jtw000
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Originally Posted by Pecha72 View Post
Ha ha. You really are a funny guy!

I've now got 22 yrs on bikes, first 15 without ABS, and then with it. For road-riding, there's no going back for me. I don't depend on it to save my ass, or take more risks because of it. But also I don't have severe disillusions about how I can handle braking on an emergency situation. Feel free to choose whatever you want, and whatever you think you'll be safest with.
I built my first bike at 16, that was 24 years ago so I win. You just keep doing what they tell you to do, the rest of us with our own mind will decide for ourselves. And incidentally, I live in a third world country, I have a severe braking emergency four or five times a day. Maybe you're just not as good as the rest of us?
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Old 02-12-2014, 06:05 AM   #48
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I'm not saying that this is totally impossible.

But you are blowing it completely out of proportion. For one thing, different systems on different bikes will function differently.

I do believe in the freedom of choice, though, so I'm all for a 3-way switch (ON - Rear only - OFF) and also make that standard. Then the rider can choose what he/she wants to use.
It actually quite common, it's even in the F800GS owner's manual to turn the ABS off when riding on washboard surfaces. I'm OK with that, it's off for dirt riding anyway. When it happens on paved streets, I'm not OK. Twice now, no brakes at all, absolutely zero, and with no warning at all.

Yes, I'm sure different systems react differently, I've ony ever used BMW's extensively, rode a couple other's and they seemed fine but I only skidded it a couple times to test it, they were other people's bikes so I didn't ride them very much.

As far as the switch, a simple on / off switch you can hit quickly like a kill switch would be fine for me.
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Old 02-12-2014, 06:20 AM   #49
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You just keep doing what they tell you to do
Beyond me, where you got that idea.. out of your hat probably. When I΄ve bought an ABS bike, I΄ve always had the choice of an otherwise identical version but without ABS, so this decision has been my own every time. Nobody has told me to buy this or that, I΄m old enough to decide independently.


Ah yes, developing countries and traffic.. especially one of my DL650΄s has been used in such places a lot, and I΄d say in that environment, ABS is even more helpful than here in the “1st world”. For one thing, road surfaces in 3rd world countries are almost always covered with something, from diesel spills to drying beans to cow poo, so traction changes a lot all the time. Trying to stop a heavy bike effectively on such surfaces can be tricky... well, not for riding gods like you, but for us mere mortals. So, I΄ll have ABS for road-riding anywhere, and if it΄s an ΄exotic΄ country from a Western point of view, then I΄ll be even happier to have it. And as always, YMMV.
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Old 02-12-2014, 06:47 AM   #50
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Yes, I'm sure different systems react differently, I've ony ever used BMW's extensively, rode a couple other's and they seemed fine but I only skidded it a couple times to test it, they were other people's bikes so I didn't ride them very much.
Strange, I΄ve heard similar claims about BMW ABS before.

On my own bikes, I΄ve never felt anything resembling ΄brakeless΄, even though braking on a bumpy surface is a challenging situation. But it΄s not easy on normal brakes either.
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Old 02-13-2014, 05:51 AM   #51
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I don't think you really understand. You hit a pothole, the brakes switch off. You hit the brakes on a polished road, the brakes switch off. I think that's a major problem.
I have never had this happen on the three bikes I've had with ABS. I think your brakes are fucked up somehow. I ride hard on all manner of surfaces and have never once experienced this kind of thing.

Doug
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Old 02-13-2014, 09:14 AM   #52
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I have never had this happen on the three bikes I've had with ABS. I think your brakes are fucked up somehow. I ride hard on all manner of surfaces and have never once experienced this kind of thing.

Doug
Great! It will be a real thrill when it does happen!
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Old 02-13-2014, 09:34 AM   #53
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German Motorrad did a big 2-part ABS test article a couple years ago. they tested all sorts of bikes from sportsbikes to ADV bikes to cruisers, and all of them in different braking conditions, dry tarmac, wet tarmac, gravel, and also on bumpy surface, and tarmac where there were short patches of sand while the rest was grippy. They DID notice, that sportsbikes "race-ABS" was by far the best when braking over bumps, or over patches of sand. They did NOT report any of the bikes going brakeless at any of the tests, and generally agreed, that ABS is a big plus for the roads. They even tried a VFR1200 braking hard into a corner (at up to almost 40 deg lean), and thought it can do that just fine without front washing out.
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Old 02-13-2014, 10:18 AM   #54
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Great! It will be a real thrill when it does happen!
I've put about 100,000 miles on between those three bikes so I think I've given it the ol' college try. If your ABS is acting up like you say, it remains my suggestion that you to disable it, learn to ride within the bike's limits and your skill level without it, then turn it back on and see how it goes. It's supposed to operate "in the background" as an added safety measure, not fire every time you hit the brakes to save your ass from excessive speed, lean angle, or bad decisions. None of my full-on dirt bikes ever had ABS and those things brakes work GREAT even in terrible traction conditions. My suspicion is that something is wrong with your ABS, you are riding beyond your bike's performance limits, or you are riding beyond your personal skills/capabilities (or a combination of all three) if the ABS is behaving like you say it is. Either that or you are exaggerating the issue to make some kind of warped point to the OP who asked a serious question and was hoping for a serious, considered response.

Let me ask you this - does the ABS on your car test-fire every time you hit a pot hole or patch of gravel? Of course not. I've probably put more than a half million miles on cars with ABS and they just don't do that unless I'm really standing on the brakes. I have a 3/4-ton 4X4 pickup truck with ABS and it doesn't do that even on gravel roads unless I'm really cramming on the brakes. ABS works and is good stuff, but it isn't magic, so you have to operate within its limits.

Or, just shut it off (or buy a bike without it) and quit worrying about it.

Doug
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Old 02-13-2014, 10:30 AM   #55
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Some people still seem to think they can brake better without ABS. That is like saying letters are faster than email.
That's a bit of an overstatement. I'll preface this by saying I'm an ABS fan (although none of my bikes presently have it and in the interest of full disclosure I haven't been on a bike that had it). I've worked in Ride & Handling and the Brake groups (among others) at an OEM so I spent a ton of time on the test track (meaning my professional experience with ABS is in cages). What we found was in straight line braking (dry), decent (test) drivers with a bit of experience were able to stop shorter without ABS (due to ability to modulate brakes and maintain incipient skid). Stopping distance with ABS was better than full lock but not significantly. Test drivers advantage over ABS was greater than ABS advantage over full lock.

Interesting side note; the difference between ABS and full lock braking distance grew as the test surface lost friction (the less friction the greater the difference). The same was true with the driver controlled modulation and ABS. Test driver advantage grew as the braking surface lost friction.

The real beauty of ABS was the ability to hammer the brakes and maintain directional integrity (steer). Really, really good (test) drivers (I think they were aliens) were able to out perform ABS in panic/avoidance maneuvers involving both steering and braking. The rest of us mortals struggled (and failed) to match ABS. This was true in both dry and reduced friction conditions.
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Old 02-13-2014, 10:40 AM   #56
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I've put about 100,000 miles on between those three bikes so I think I've given it the ol' college try. If your ABS is acting up like you say, it remains my suggestion that you to disable it, learn to ride within the bike's limits and your skill level without it, then turn it back on and see how it goes. It's supposed to operate "in the background" as an added safety measure, not fire every time you hit the brakes to save your ass from excessive speed, lean angle, or bad decisions. None of my full-on dirt bikes ever had ABS and those things brakes work GREAT even in terrible traction conditions. My suspicion is that something is wrong with your ABS, you are riding beyond your bike's performance limits, or you are riding beyond your personal skills/capabilities (or a combination of all three) if the ABS is behaving like you say it is. Either that or you are exaggerating the issue to make some kind of warped point to the OP who asked a serious question and was hoping for a serious, considered response.

Let me ask you this - does the ABS on your car test-fire every time you hit a pot hole or patch of gravel? Of course not. I've probably put more than a half million miles on cars with ABS and they just don't do that unless I'm really standing on the brakes. I have a 3/4-ton 4X4 pickup truck with ABS and it doesn't do that even on gravel roads unless I'm really cramming on the brakes. ABS works and is good stuff, but it isn't magic, so you have to operate within its limits.

Or, just shut it off (or buy a bike without it) and quit worrying about it.

Doug
I'm not worried. At all. If I was I'd sell the bike and be done with it.

As is, I have quite a few bikes with and without ABS, they all are fine as far as I'm concerned. I really couldn't care less whether or not it has ABS.

I'm sure one day it will be nearly as good as ABS on cars and maybe one day as good as ABS on airplanes.

Until then they shouldn't make it mandatory.
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Old 02-13-2014, 01:41 PM   #57
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The real beauty of ABS was the ability to hammer the brakes and maintain directional integrity (steer).
Exactly. Braking in a straight line, I have no doubt some skilled riders might beat ABS in a practice situation (as long as we΄re talking ΄normal΄ ABS here, not today΄s sportsbikes ΄Race-ABS΄, that maybe MotoGP riders might beat).

But on the road, when the sh1t properly hits the fan, you often have this and that to worry about. Plus you got surprised, otherwise it is not really a major emergency. On that moment, not having to worry about locking your wheels (and if you do get too close then consequently releasing the brakes, while still maintaining hard braking) and being able to concentrate on steering your way out of trouble, can be golden.

But, if somebody still wants to worry about locking his/her bikes wheels, and thinks they are better off that way, then by all means get a non-ABS bike.
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Old 02-13-2014, 08:12 PM   #58
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I always make a point never to fight with a pig, you just end up dirty and the pig enjoys it. However, to put things in terms so simple that even you can understand it...
ABS is a a triumph of marketing over common sense. This means they want to sell you additional value which translates to profit to them and a lack of choice to the end consumer. ABS might be the finest piece of technology in the known universe but I don't want it. (This probably blows your tiny little mind but wait, smarter people have reasons for thinking what they do!) You're retarded if you actually think that any large company has your best interests at heart. My little 650 BMW single has the same unit they fit to the far heavier F800gs. That's not done because the bikes are identical, or even because they're remotely alike. It's done to save costs. (Are we getting it yet?) Hence technology rarely serves the buyer. Let's look at an example, in the 80s you could buy one of a number of bikes and expect to ride them out of the showroom around the world. Now, common wisdom is that there's not a single bike that could make it reliably without serious modifications. Technology is a great thing for advancement but the only advancement have been towards reducing production costs. Add to that the now common practice of built-in obsolescence, ie, designed to fail components which are already built to an inferior standard to reduce costs.
Considering we live in a world where BMW can't even keep their flagship 1200gs moving due to fuel pump and key failures only a complete moron would want this application of technology applied to their braking system.
But we can surely believe they're telling us the truth, after all the reports are from the manufacturers themselves or the magazines they sponsor. ABS remains moderately useful on a perfectly smooth road with sufficient grip. It remains not applicable to real-world conditions, much like your own blinkered perspective and two-dimensional thinking.
I now ride a totallly reliable 80s bike that's pared down and even lacks a battery and charging circuit. It's more rugged, more reliable, more powerful and more fun than my 650 BMW despite being a smaller displacement. It's easy to work on and utterly bulletproof. Honda doesn't make bikes like this because nobody ever replaced them. Do you think a modern bike will still fire your passion in 35 years? Unlikely. It'll be recycled into dog-food cans long before then.
So do we see that the issues are wider than "I believe what Honda say?" Manufacturing has become entirely, totally, completely governed by the need for profit and all other concerns are very secondary. Every gadget that can be bolted on to raise the end cost to the consumer is done and ABS is another piece of modern crap that simply doesn't perform in real world applications.
Secondarily is the argument that it frequently fails. Ignoring your only argument that it stops you slightly better in some conditions is the very reasonable negative perspective that more often it kills the brakes altogether. Seatbelts are fine in cars but if they were designed to cover your eyes nobody would want to use them. It's the same principal here. Maybe you'll need to perform a serious emergency stop. Maybe. But I know for a fact I will need to use the brakes at some point and there's a very real possibility that they won't be there because my manufacturer put sub-standard parts into my braking system.
Think for yourself. I rely on me. Only me. I do my own work, I build my own bike, I do my own research and I came to my own conclusion. Your only argument relies completely on you repeating what others have said so it's entirely invalid.
I know you won't understand this but hopefully it's food for thought for people who really can still think for themselves.
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Old 02-13-2014, 08:20 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by jtw000 View Post
I always make a point never to fight with a pig, you just end up dirty and the pig enjoys it. However, to put things in terms so simple that even you can understand it...
ABS is a a triumph of marketing over common sense. This means they want to sell you additional value which translates to profit to them and a lack of choice to the end consumer. ABS might be the finest piece of technology in the known universe but I don't want it. (This probably blows your tiny little mind but wait, smarter people have reasons for thinking what they do!) You're retarded if you actually think that any large company has your best interests at heart. My little 650 BMW single has the same unit they fit to the far heavier F800gs. That's not done because the bikes are identical, or even because they're remotely alike. It's done to save costs. (Are we getting it yet?) Hence technology rarely serves the buyer. Let's look at an example, in the 80s you could buy one of a number of bikes and expect to ride them out of the showroom around the world. Now, common wisdom is that there's not a single bike that could make it reliably without serious modifications. Technology is a great thing for advancement but the only advancement have been towards reducing production costs. Add to that the now common practice of built-in obsolescence, ie, designed to fail components which are already built to an inferior standard to reduce costs.
Considering we live in a world where BMW can't even keep their flagship 1200gs moving due to fuel pump and key failures only a complete moron would want this application of technology applied to their braking system.
But we can surely believe they're telling us the truth, after all the reports are from the manufacturers themselves or the magazines they sponsor. ABS remains moderately useful on a perfectly smooth road with sufficient grip. It remains not applicable to real-world conditions, much like your own blinkered perspective and two-dimensional thinking.
I now ride a totallly reliable 80s bike that's pared down and even lacks a battery and charging circuit. It's more rugged, more reliable, more powerful and more fun than my 650 BMW despite being a smaller displacement. It's easy to work on and utterly bulletproof. Honda doesn't make bikes like this because nobody ever replaced them. Do you think a modern bike will still fire your passion in 35 years? Unlikely. It'll be recycled into dog-food cans long before then.
So do we see that the issues are wider than "I believe what Honda say?" Manufacturing has become entirely, totally, completely governed by the need for profit and all other concerns are very secondary. Every gadget that can be bolted on to raise the end cost to the consumer is done and ABS is another piece of modern crap that simply doesn't perform in real world applications.
Secondarily is the argument that it frequently fails. Ignoring your only argument that it stops you slightly better in some conditions is the very reasonable negative perspective that more often it kills the brakes altogether. Seatbelts are fine in cars but if they were designed to cover your eyes nobody would want to use them. It's the same principal here. Maybe you'll need to perform a serious emergency stop. Maybe. But I know for a fact I will need to use the brakes at some point and there's a very real possibility that they won't be there because my manufacturer put sub-standard parts into my braking system.
Think for yourself. I rely on me. Only me. I do my own work, I build my own bike, I do my own research and I came to my own conclusion. Your only argument relies completely on you repeating what others have said so it's entirely invalid.
I know you won't understand this but hopefully it's food for thought for people who really can still think for themselves.
.
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Old 02-13-2014, 08:23 PM   #60
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