ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > Regional forums > The Rockies It's all downhill from here...
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-17-2014, 05:58 PM   #46
MountainsandRivers
loves dirty things!
 
MountainsandRivers's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2010
Location: To Hell U Ride
Oddometer: 2,146
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatchance View Post

if someone wants to avoid different cultures, you miss out meeting some wonderful and fascinating people who might have a story you've never heard.
+1000
__________________
2009 Beta 525RR
supporter of COHVCO, RMAR, PAPA, TPA and the GOATS!
MountainsandRivers is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2014, 06:46 PM   #47
oldoval
Frank Orator
 
oldoval's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: Cedar City, UT
Oddometer: 427
I'm an atheist from Georgia that's been living in Cedar City, UT for the last 12 years... and I travel to St. George about once or twice a month. I've also visited about every town in Utah.


What would you like to know?

.
__________________
http://nathanwiley.smugmug.com/
oldoval is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2014, 07:11 PM   #48
steve68steve OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
steve68steve's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Lehigh Valley, PA
Oddometer: 398
Wow... (sigh)... one more try...

OK, I think some or you may not know the definition of "culture shock".
It's the disorientation you feel when you move to a different place because nothing's familiar and you don't know the local customs, language, etc. For a European-descended American, it would likely be higher moving to China than to, say, England, because many of our customs, laws, language, religions, etc. came from England. The likely harder time you'd have adjusting to China does NOT mean you hate Chinese people, it means it's a larger cultural change to process and assimilate. It has higher "culture shock."

"Culture shock" is NOT a product of white supremacy, racism, intolerance, etc. It's a natural result of unfamiliarity.

Also: "I don't speak Spanish" is a completely different concept than "I don't like Spanish people and wouldn't want to live where there are any." The careful reader should recall me saying only the former. Where I live NOW is almost 50% Spanish. My best friend is half Cuban... OMG, we sometimes have lunch with a mutual friend who is BLACK... The east coast - and the Megalopolis I live near in particular - is VERY, VERY diverse. I'm guessing FAR moreso than the West... ;) Having said that, everything here is in English, with Spanish 'also available'. IF there areas of AZ or NM where there is no English 'available', that's something I'd need to know.

Please judge me according to what I've SAID, not what you THINK I might have meant. The term "culture shock" is not racist. "Hippy," and "cowboy" are neutral descriptive categories, not hate speech. Not being bilingual is not a form of prejudice.
__________________
Steve

'12 Glee
steve68steve is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2014, 07:33 PM   #49
steve68steve OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
steve68steve's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Lehigh Valley, PA
Oddometer: 398
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldoval View Post
I'm an atheist from Georgia that's been living in Cedar City, UT for the last 12 years... and I travel to St. George about once or twice a month. I've also visited about every town in Utah.


What would you like to know?

.
WOW!! Thanks!!

My wife is little concerned that we'd feel like 'outsiders' in UT. Maybe they are all doing their thing together and we're not part of any of it so we're totally alone. We wouldn't want people preaching or trying to convert us every time someone found out we weren't LDS.

A poster here turned me on to "city-data.com" and I've been reading the forums for St. George. More than a few posts there are by people complaining about being judged, ostracized, blackballed, etc. Others just note some things which are different (like no working Sundays or after 5 PM) that can hard to adjust to. A poster here even intimated that UT is a nice place to visit, but not sure he'd want to live there.

Every post which is anything but a glowing endorsement of Mormons makes my wife feel like her concerns are justified and maybe we should scratch UT off the list.

As an east-coast atheist, how have you been received? Are you open about your atheism? Do you think people treat you differently because of it? Is the Mormon faith in the foreground of daily life?
IF you knew then what you knew now, would you have made the move sooner, or not at all?
What things seemed different from GA that surprised you (the people and customs, not climate and landscape) when you first got to UT?
__________________
Steve

'12 Glee
steve68steve is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2014, 08:12 PM   #50
oldoval
Frank Orator
 
oldoval's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: Cedar City, UT
Oddometer: 427
A lot of what you hear about Mormons is nonsense from people who don't live here. You have to take all of it with a grain of salt.

You will be outsiders, there is no getting around that. But that doesn't mean you will be shunned or blackballed or whatever you want to call it. They will still socialize with you, have BBQ with you, etc, if that sort of thing is important to you and your wife. You will always know in the back of your mind though, that you are not completely "in". You will probably never be in their closest circles.

No one will try to convert you, Mormons could care less whether you are LDS or not. Mormons living in Utah, surrounded by 2 million people exactly like themselves who are also Mormon, are completely comfortable. Their is no need for them to try to convert you or posture. You are a minority, they don't really have any fear of you. I find this state (at least the southern part) to have less religious oppression than Georgia.

Not all Mormons are the same. There are different degrees of faith. Mormons are like Jews. They are LDS, born into it, whether they are practicing or not. I know Mormons who drink, smoke, smoke dope, curse, cheat, steal, commit adultery. Yet they all call themselves Mormons.

The same things that would be open or closed on a Sunday in your state are the same things that will be open or closed here.

Like any religion, the practitioners make up their own version and rationalize their decisions to fit their needs. I know a few who won't buy anything on Sunday, not even gas. Yet those same people will let me buy them a Coke. (caffiene is verboten). Like any religion, it's a whole bunch of hypocrisy.

I was very open about being an atheist when I first moved here, and am still vocal about it today. They could care less. I have friends at work who are Mormons...but like I said, I will never be their "closest" friends. This may have more to do with the fact that I'm an asshole though and can be hard to get along with.

You will notice things in daily life that are directly related to the church. Like mention of the "temple" or "ward" or "president" on the news that you would never hear in other states. The church owns the news channels. I think it's funny and mostly ignore it by now.

Mormons would have never stopped me from moving here. The extreme weather is a bigger concern. As is the really bad WIND!
__________________
http://nathanwiley.smugmug.com/

oldoval screwed with this post 02-17-2014 at 08:18 PM
oldoval is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2014, 08:17 PM   #51
eakins
Butler Maps
 
eakins's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2002
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Oddometer: 17,211
sounds like you need to make a list of say the top 5 places and visit each for several days to get a feel.

everyone has different experiences living in Utah if they are not LDS.
those that can easily seek out and find others who are not, do just fine as do those that lead a quite life. those that must be part of groups, activities & nightlife scenes it's much harder.

i have friends who live in the SLC area for the winter powder. they brew their own beer and all their tight friends are non-LDS and they all stay together for fun and activities. they don't socialize with work people, just their ski friends. it works well for them, but they know others who have left Utah. those people got sick of the church influence that is everywhere and the lack of night life.

We cruised around on a sat night in St George to see if there was any action to be found. Downtown & the college area was dead. We went back to our hotel and busted out our wine stash. I love Utah for it's endless outdoor options, but I would have a hard time living there.
__________________
Butler Maps - motorcycle maps for riders by riders -
Alaska
AZ map COBDR AZBDR IDBDR South East map
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=598717
Cycle World Adventure Rally:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=956350
eakins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2014, 08:21 PM   #52
eakins
Butler Maps
 
eakins's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2002
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Oddometer: 17,211
i've heard more than a few 1st hand accounts of people coming by asking if they've considered the LDS church.

i've also heard 1st hand accounts of LDS member being friendly on the most surface level only to non-LDS co-workers and that person never connecting with people at work or the community as a large. they'll be nice, but not your friend as you are an outsider. it is what it is.

like i said it takes a certain personality to live with it or not.
sounds like you're doing just fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldoval View Post
A lot of what you hear about Mormons is nonsense from people who don't live here. You have to take all of it with a grain of salt.

You will be outsiders, there is no getting around that. But that doesn't mean you will be shunned or blackballed or whatever you want to call it. They will still socialize with you, have BBQ with you, etc, if that sort of thing is important to you and your wife. You will always know in the back of your mind though, that you are not completely "in". You will probably never be in their closest circles.

No one will try to convert you, Mormons could care less whether you are LDS or not. Mormons living in Utah, surrounded by 2 million people exactly like themselves who are also Mormon, are completely comfortable. Their is no need for them to try to convert you or posture. You are a minority, they don't really have any fear of you. I find this state (at least the southern part) to have less religious oppression than Georgia.

Not all Mormons are the same. There are different degrees of faith. Mormons are like Jews. They are LDS, born into it, whether they are practicing or not. I know Mormons who drink, smoke, smoke dope, curse, cheat, steal, commit adultery. Yet they all call themselves Mormons.

The same things that would be open or closed on a Sunday in your state are the same things that will be open or closed here.

Like any religion, the practitioners make up their own version and rationalize their decisions to fit their needs. I know a few who won't buy anything on Sunday, not even gas. Yet those same people will let me buy them a Coke. (caffiene is verboten). Like any religion, it's a whole bunch of hypocrisy.

I was very open about being an atheist when I first moved here, and am still vocal about it today. They could care less. I have friends at work who are Mormons...but like I said, I will never be their "closest" friends. This may have more to do with the fact that I'm an asshole though and can be hard to get along with.

You will notice things in daily life that are directly related to the church. Like mention of the "temple" or "ward" or "president" on the news that you would never hear in other states. The church owns the news channels. I think it's funny and mostly ignore it by now.

Mormons would have never stopped me from moving here. The extreme weather is a bigger concern. As is the really bad WIND!
__________________
Butler Maps - motorcycle maps for riders by riders -
Alaska
AZ map COBDR AZBDR IDBDR South East map
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=598717
Cycle World Adventure Rally:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=956350
eakins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2014, 08:28 PM   #53
eakins
Butler Maps
 
eakins's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2002
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Oddometer: 17,211
ok, but you're 1st attempt came across as you only desired to be with a narrow group of people. the world is a diverse place.

i have a unique perspective on your perspective as i grew up in your area.
most of the people are born and raised there and stay there. they may go to college elsewhere but they come back.

out west there is local who were born here (like my daughter) but most people you will meet are from somewhere else. everyone seems to meet in the middle, especially in Colorado. i love all those unique perspectives.
people choose to live here, not are stuck living here like much I hear of the east and mid-west. people also travel alot whether that be all over the state, region or other countries. people, for the most part, are well educated and health oriented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve68steve View Post
OK, I think some or you may not know the definition of "culture shock".
It's the disorientation you feel when you move to a different place because nothing's familiar and you don't know the local customs, language, etc. For a European-descended American, it would likely be higher moving to China than to, say, England, because many of our customs, laws, language, religions, etc. came from England. The likely harder time you'd have adjusting to China does NOT mean you hate Chinese people, it means it's a larger cultural change to process and assimilate. It has higher "culture shock."

"Culture shock" is NOT a product of white supremacy, racism, intolerance, etc. It's a natural result of unfamiliarity.

Also: "I don't speak Spanish" is a completely different concept than "I don't like Spanish people and wouldn't want to live where there are any." The careful reader should recall me saying only the former. Where I live NOW is almost 50% Spanish. My best friend is half Cuban... OMG, we sometimes have lunch with a mutual friend who is BLACK... The east coast - and the Megalopolis I live near in particular - is VERY, VERY diverse. I'm guessing FAR moreso than the West... ;) Having said that, everything here is in English, with Spanish 'also available'. IF there areas of AZ or NM where there is no English 'available', that's something I'd need to know.

Please judge me according to what I've SAID, not what you THINK I might have meant. The term "culture shock" is not racist. "Hippy," and "cowboy" are neutral descriptive categories, not hate speech. Not being bilingual is not a form of prejudice.
__________________
Butler Maps - motorcycle maps for riders by riders -
Alaska
AZ map COBDR AZBDR IDBDR South East map
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=598717
Cycle World Adventure Rally:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=956350
eakins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2014, 08:28 PM   #54
oldoval
Frank Orator
 
oldoval's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: Cedar City, UT
Oddometer: 427
Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins View Post
i've heard more than a few 1st hand accounts of people coming by asking if they've considered the LDS church.

i've also heard 1st hand accounts of LDS member being friendly on the most surface level only to non-LDS co-workers and that person never connecting with people at work or the community as a large. they'll be nice, but not your friend as you are an outsider. it is what it is.

like i said it takes a certain personality to live with it or not.
sounds like you're doing just fine.
You don't live here, so what you are saying is mostly conjecture.

I've never had any missionaries come by knocking. Why would they, everyone here is already the same religion they are? I did have every Baptist church come knocking when I lived in Georgia though.

Connecting with my coworkers or not has more to do with my attitude than my religion for sure.
__________________
http://nathanwiley.smugmug.com/
oldoval is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2014, 10:08 PM   #55
mrt10x
Dumba$s Jarhead
 
mrt10x's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2008
Location: Woodland Park, CO
Oddometer: 3,169
That is quite a comprehensive list you have created.. unfortunately some of your criteria are diametrically opposed. Any area that meets those criteria is going to be over priced and over populated... there is a reason 23 million people live in Southern California.. because it USED to meet most of your criteria.

I grew up in SoCal, joined the USMC and have since lived in CA, AZ, GA, PA, RI, HI, VA, CO and Japan, and spent significant time in FL, NC, SC and NV, I can tell you that you will find people and things you will love no matter where you end up. Expand your horizons a bit.. get out of your comfort zone and you will grow as a person and your life will be richer because of it. I didnt take you original post as racist or closed minded at all.. simply unadventurous.

You need to weight your list, because you simply cant fulfill everything you have listed.. the place just doesn't exist. Start with some "must haves" and "can't haves." I could never move back to CA because I own guns that are considered illegal there, and I believe in liberal concealed carry laws. I couldn't move back to AZ because I would rather have snow in the winter than 115 in the summer, and I need to live close to good trout fishing, although I know there are places in AZ that have both of those.

As for your fears of UT Mormons and their exclusiveness,,, I would bet it falls into the same category as any other broad brush generalization about a people, an area or a culture,, probably blown way out of proportion, and if you give it a shot you will adapt, find your niche, find your people and be very happy.

I heard horror stories about the prejudice, Gaijin hating Japanese in Iwakuni when moved there.. but it quickly became apparent to me that those stories were being spread by folks who never left the comfort of the US base. Once I put myself out there, met some locals, I was wholeheartedly embraced by the local population.. same thing with the Hawaiian natives.

Take a leap,, get out of your comfort zone, stereotypes are always overblown and often blatantly incorrect.
__________________
We are enmeshed in the cancerous discipline of "security." And in the worship of security we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine - and before we know it our lives are gone.
mrt10x is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2014, 07:51 PM   #56
steve68steve OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
steve68steve's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Lehigh Valley, PA
Oddometer: 398
Oldoval, thanks for the reply! It's great to get a perspective from someone who's there. As I read what you wrote it all made perfect sense... and I think it's about what I expected and I'm OK with it - just not sure mamma would be happy or not. Hey, best wishes towards your house not subsiding!

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldoval View Post
....like Jews. They are LDS, born into it, whether they are practicing or not. I know Mormons who drink, smoke, smoke dope, curse, cheat, steal, commit adultery. Yet they all call themselves Mormons.
I know some drinking, smoking, Muslims who decorate with pics of half-naked women. They'll tell you they are devout Muslims, tho. Also know a Jew who celebrates Christmas. She loves having a decorated tree in the house, has a young daughter fascinated by Santa. I always wish her "Merry Jewmas".

Mrt10x, thanks for the reply. I know there's no perfect place. Where there's no people, there's no jobs; if a place is beautiful and has nice weather, it will get crowded. The list is just a wish list, roughly in order of importance - I don't expect ANYWHERE to 'score' 100%.

Thanks all others who replied. Form a tip here, last night I started looking a lot harder at the Farmington, NM - Cortez - Durango CO area. Looks to be another great area! I just know I'm doing all this research to find the perfect spot, but it will all come down to where I can find a job.
__________________
Steve

'12 Glee
steve68steve is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2014, 08:47 PM   #57
eakins
Butler Maps
 
eakins's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2002
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Oddometer: 17,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldoval View Post
You don't live here, so what you are saying is mostly conjecture.

I've never had any missionaries come by knocking. Why would they, everyone here is already the same religion they are? I did have every Baptist church come knocking when I lived in Georgia though.

Connecting with my coworkers or not has more to do with my attitude than my religion for sure.
yes, i will give you that.
one the other hand I don't think my friends would lie to me about what has happened to them and their friends. they assumed LDS neighbors who they recently meet reported that back as shortly after people came knocking on the door, more than 1x for that matter. they had to get nasty to keep them away.

could also be a location things as they are in SLC.
__________________
Butler Maps - motorcycle maps for riders by riders -
Alaska
AZ map COBDR AZBDR IDBDR South East map
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=598717
Cycle World Adventure Rally:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=956350
eakins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2014, 08:49 PM   #58
oldoval
Frank Orator
 
oldoval's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: Cedar City, UT
Oddometer: 427
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve68steve View Post
Oldoval, thanks for the reply! It's great to get a perspective from someone who's there. As I read what you wrote it all made perfect sense... and I think it's about what I expected and I'm OK with it - just not sure mamma would be happy or not. Hey, best wishes towards your house not subsiding!
Is subsidence something else you've found to worry yourself with? Look hard enough and you can find evidence of settling in almost every house in Utah. It is a consequence of living on land that is constantly changing and on the move.

Like others have said, you will find problems with every area, neighborhood, state, country you investigate. If you go into it with this attitude, I can predict with a fair bit of certainty that you will not be happy in the west.

Good luck.

.
__________________
http://nathanwiley.smugmug.com/
oldoval is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2014, 08:56 PM   #59
eakins
Butler Maps
 
eakins's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2002
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Oddometer: 17,211
there are places in AZ that are mild enough in the winter and not too ripping hot in the summer...and if you drive/trailer an hour or 2 you can find ideal riding temps/weather year round.

Prescott comes to mind.
There is ton of mtn riding most of the year out your back door, up near Flagg for the hottest part of summer and down near Wickenberg right now. I was in the area in late Dec. and the weather was spectacular.

I'd say the same could be said for Grand junction but it's still colder.

http://www.weather.com/weather/tenday/USAZ0178
http://www.weather.com/weather/tenda...+USCO0166:1:US

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrt10x View Post
That is quite a comprehensive list you have created.. unfortunately some of your criteria are diametrically opposed. Any area that meets those criteria is going to be over priced and over populated... there is a reason 23 million people live in Southern California.. because it USED to meet most of your criteria.

I grew up in SoCal, joined the USMC and have since lived in CA, AZ, GA, PA, RI, HI, VA, CO and Japan, and spent significant time in FL, NC, SC and NV, I can tell you that you will find people and things you will love no matter where you end up. Expand your horizons a bit.. get out of your comfort zone and you will grow as a person and your life will be richer because of it. I didnt take you original post as racist or closed minded at all.. simply unadventurous.

You need to weight your list, because you simply cant fulfill everything you have listed.. the place just doesn't exist. Start with some "must haves" and "can't haves." I could never move back to CA because I own guns that are considered illegal there, and I believe in liberal concealed carry laws. I couldn't move back to AZ because I would rather have snow in the winter than 115 in the summer, and I need to live close to good trout fishing, although I know there are places in AZ that have both of those.

As for your fears of UT Mormons and their exclusiveness,,, I would bet it falls into the same category as any other broad brush generalization about a people, an area or a culture,, probably blown way out of proportion, and if you give it a shot you will adapt, find your niche, find your people and be very happy.

I heard horror stories about the prejudice, Gaijin hating Japanese in Iwakuni when moved there.. but it quickly became apparent to me that those stories were being spread by folks who never left the comfort of the US base. Once I put myself out there, met some locals, I was wholeheartedly embraced by the local population.. same thing with the Hawaiian natives.

Take a leap,, get out of your comfort zone, stereotypes are always overblown and often blatantly incorrect.
__________________
Butler Maps - motorcycle maps for riders by riders -
Alaska
AZ map COBDR AZBDR IDBDR South East map
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=598717
Cycle World Adventure Rally:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=956350

eakins screwed with this post 02-18-2014 at 09:02 PM
eakins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2014, 06:16 PM   #60
DADODIRT
Beastly Adventurer
 
DADODIRT's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2004
Location: Durango,CO(not quite Purgatory)
Oddometer: 3,256
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve68steve View Post
Thanks all others who replied. Form a tip here, last night I started looking a lot harder at the Farmington, NM - Cortez - Durango CO area. Looks to be another great area! I just know I'm doing all this research to find the perfect spot, but it will all come down to where I can find a job.
I looked back through the posts but didn't see what kind of work you and/or your wife are looking for.
Those three cities are all a bit different. Cortez is probably has the smallest economy due to its size.
Durango has a college and is a bicycle/ski community.
Farmington seems to be growing. I think a lot of it is the gas industry.
__________________
I find your lack of faith disturbing.
DADODIRT is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 09:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014