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Old 01-26-2015, 10:03 PM   #1
Leeexc OP
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2014 KTM 450 Rally(carb) V 2015 450 Rally (FI)

Now that the Dakar has been and gone what are peoples thoughts on the new 2015 ktm 450 fuel injected bike compared with the older model with a carb?

The older carb bike seems very well proven and ideal for the rider (like me) just wanting to get to the finish of the Dakar, are there any yet known issues with the later FI bike?
I for one see a carb as fixable out in the field where as if FI starts playing up you are a bit stuffed unless there is a ktm dealer near by who can plug it in to the diagnostics find out what the problem is, even then you need the operator to know what he is doing which is not always the case Yes I to have had the 690 enduro FI experiance, do not want to go there again!

Whilst on the FI/ Carb subject how does each bike go on with the very high altitude on the Dakar? do you have to re jet the carb?

I believe the later bike is also smaller and a bit lighter so better suited to the tighter terrain? The bigger bike would not bother me to much as I often ride bigger bikes any way.

Another thing for me to consider is if I were to put an entry in for the Dakar I would be looking to go Malle Moto, is there much differance between the 2 bikes as far as maintence goes?

Thanks in advance, Lee.
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Old 01-26-2015, 10:15 PM   #2
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I used to think the same thing about carb bikes. At least I could (probably) fix it in the field. FI has come so far no though that I prefer it. I don't think it would ever be an issue. Venting seems to be an issue with some teams but mostly cars.
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Old 01-27-2015, 02:08 AM   #3
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Well, we had 2 bikes on our team, the old and the new KTM.
There is always talk of not being able to fix much on an EFI bike during a stage vs. a carbed bike, a lot of blah blah IMHO.

The EFI KTM is a great bike, starts right up in any circumstance, in the freezing morning or in the 50C heat in the dunes and also at any altitude, no worries. The only incident that occured was during the salt killer stage. One of the malle moto guys changed an injector, due do some salt getting into the fine injector. But that stage pretty much decimated any other bike also. In general the electrics on the bikes are the same, so it didn't matter what sort of ride you were on.

I would stick to EFI any day
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Old 01-27-2015, 02:34 AM   #4
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I have a carb'd 450 Rally and have no issues with it being carb'd. When I DNF'd day 2 I became a mechanic for a carb'd 450 Rally. The team also had a FI'd 450 Rally running. Both finished. I believe the handling difference more likely to sway a decision. There's no basis for the choice between the fuel insertion method. For me the cost difference in crash damage repair of that CF nav tower versus the aluminium plates tower is much more the decision driver. If I didn't already have a 450 Rally though, I'd buy the new FI one in a heartbeat! Any generous sponsors out there? Lol
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Old 01-27-2015, 05:11 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayBo1 View Post
I have a carb'd 450 Rally and have no issues with it being carb'd. When I DNF'd day 2 I became a mechanic for a carb'd 450 Rally. The team also had a FI'd 450 Rally running. Both finished. I believe the handling difference more likely to sway a decision. There's no basis for the choice between the fuel insertion method. For me the cost difference in crash damage repair of that CF nav tower versus the aluminium plates tower is much more the decision driver. If I didn't already have a 450 Rally though, I'd buy the new FI one in a heartbeat! Any generous sponsors out there? Lol
Just to be clear, is it an expense to repair issue or rather that the CF tower is less likely to be damaged, from what you saw?
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Old 01-27-2015, 05:41 AM   #6
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Just to be clear, is it an expense to repair issue or rather that the CF tower is less likely to be damaged, from what you saw?
An expense to replace issue, was my line of thought. It is likely to be more resilient to damage in a crash, but if it is damaged the wallet pain will be significant with little hope of work-around for trail-side repair. It is an incredibly complex piece of kit that requires precision both on the internal and external faces, so I believe it will be complex and expensive to copy/mold. If damaged during a rally, replacement would be required, whereas the old tower can simply be panel-beaten back into shape. Replacement would require limping home to the bivouac whereas with the old tower some level of rough repair can be made trail-side.

Those are my thoughts without actually having the chance to pull a fibre tower apart and talk to someone experienced in CF work with one in my hands. With the experience I do have with CF work, which consists of many discussions with an expert in the field and a high level of respect for the work involved, I would prefer the aluminium unless I had a large expense account.

Having said all that, if I didn't already have my old 450 Rally, I would buy the new one in a heartbeat and learn not to fall off!!!
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Old 01-27-2015, 06:00 AM   #7
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CF tower costs"

2025 retail for the main tower cf and 2487 for the cf front light support.
+1 on John's thoughts, CF is a nice piece of material, pretty useless if it gets damaged in the field. Now I guess that it depends on how you crash, having seen the video of Coma crashing the tower made it home, Sam's was a nav plate damage, tower looked ok, so one would say that it crashes ok.... Still the old is dead cheap now to service and there are alternatives, but hey. that happens with all the things that are the previous versions.

I would not worry about the EFI, at least in an orange bike.
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Old 01-27-2015, 06:03 AM   #8
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The pressing question is when you plan to race. If 2016, then perhaps it's an either or question but if I may be frank, if you are asking a which bike type of question now, I would say you are not shooting for 2016 as these types of questions should be long settled. Forget the carb vs. FI issue. It's a non-starter because KTM is no longer making the older bike. Look how many were on the new bike this year. For the best chances of success, go with what KTM will have the most parts for. In 2016, there will be even fewer carb'd bikes and in 2017, I would expect almost none except for some of the guys at the high end of the start list.

Each year you get away from production, the less and less parts KTM will carry with them. That's the dividing line as far as I'm concerned, not carb vs. FI.
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Old 01-27-2015, 07:33 AM   #9
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There is nothing wrong with the EFI as long as you can service the fuel pump without having to dump the fuel tank, and as long as the wiring harness is of decent quality. The pumps used in the Bergs and 690s work well but are very sensitive to fuel quality and will seize instantly if grit gets in them. Being housed in the fuel tank makes them very difficult to service if a pump is to fail (your most likely rally ending failure on an EFI bike).
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Old 01-28-2015, 01:41 AM   #10
Bill the Bong
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayBo1 View Post
An expense to replace issue, was my line of thought. It is likely to be more resilient to damage in a crash, but if it is damaged the wallet pain will be significant with little hope of work-around for trail-side repair. It is an incredibly complex piece of kit that requires precision both on the internal and external faces, so I believe it will be complex and expensive to copy/mold. If damaged during a rally, replacement would be required, whereas the old tower can simply be panel-beaten back into shape. Replacement would require limping home to the bivouac whereas with the old tower some level of rough repair can be made trail-side.

Those are my thoughts without actually having the chance to pull a fibre tower apart and talk to someone experienced in CF work with one in my hands. With the experience I do have with CF work, which consists of many discussions with an expert in the field and a high level of respect for the work involved, I would prefer the aluminium unless I had a large expense account.

Having said all that, if I didn't already have my old 450 Rally, I would buy the new one in a heartbeat and learn not to fall off!!!
Thanks for the answer.
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Old 01-28-2015, 05:43 AM   #11
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Lee, Andrew Newlands (carb) RR is for sale, was new in feb 14. If you don't have his number and want to pursue send me a message.
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Old 01-28-2015, 08:06 AM   #12
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Thanks for the replies, I know people still have problems with FI on exc's etc just look at any ktm forum, that said you would think the rally bikes would get a better FI system. Interesting about the nav tower cost to replace.

This is the situation I find my self in, I know of a brand new still in the box 2014 ktm 450RR (with carb) and it is 20,000 euros, I want to do the Abu Dhabi desert challenge in march (time might well be an issue) to hopefully get a finish and then maybe when the Dakar entries come out if I can raise the funds apply for a malle moto entry.

So do I get this bike now and if the Dakar entry does happen I have the bike or just get a much cheaper converted enduro bike to do the Abu Dhabi on then if the Dakar entry does happen order a new 2016 450RR which will no doubt be more money, or get a salt coated used 2015 FI bike
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Old 01-28-2015, 08:45 AM   #13
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So do I get this bike now and if the Dakar entry does happen I have the bike or just get a much cheaper converted enduro bike to do the Abu Dhabi on then if the Dakar entry does happen order a new 2016 450RR which will no doubt be more money, or get a salt coated used 2015 FI bike
A bird in the hand so to speak....

IIRC, Dakar entry replies start rolling out in July. If you wait until confirmation of inclusion to put in an order for a new 450RR, I would expect the low volume run would be spoken for at that point. I think you are cutting the timing very thin to attempt to order a bike at such a late date.

Also, the new bike will end up running you about double that of the carbed bike you noted. That is a lot of money that could be put to other uses while still having a proven Dakar winning bike that is more than capable than the majority of the riders in the field. In other words, the bike is not the weak link.

In 2011, JayBo1's 450RR (carb) cost him $50K Australian dollars (about 39,000 Euros) and I wouldn't expect the FI bike is any cheaper.

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=718817
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Old 01-28-2015, 10:29 AM   #14
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A bird in the hand so to speak....

IIRC, Dakar entry replies start rolling out in July. If you wait until confirmation of inclusion to put in an order for a new 450RR, I would expect the low volume run would be spoken for at that point. I think you are cutting the timing very thin to attempt to order a bike at such a late date.

Also, the new bike will end up running you about double that of the carbed bike you noted. That is a lot of money that could be put to other uses while still having a proven Dakar winning bike that is more than capable than the majority of the riders in the field. In other words, the bike is not the weak link.

In 2011, JayBo1's 450RR (carb) cost him $50K Australian dollars (about 39,000 Euros) and I wouldn't expect the FI bike is any cheaper.

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=718817
Well doyle, Just made by far the most expensive motorcycle purchase of my life, so I hold you responsable
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Old 01-28-2015, 10:46 AM   #15
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Well doyle, Just made by far the most expensive motorcycle purchase of my life, so I hold you responsable
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