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Old 03-05-2014, 11:40 AM   #31
jmlmjmjm
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Originally Posted by fast4d View Post
I wonder if a person gets enough of these it'll warrant a process server or LE to serve notice in person.
In AZ they use a process server if you ignore the original ticket. I do not believe every ignored ticket gets served but some do.

My advice. Throw the ticket away. If they serve you later, sign the form on the back saying you are "not" the driver and mail it in.

If they still come after you....time to pay the fine.
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Old 03-05-2014, 12:06 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by SgtDuster View Post
Your story isn't the same thing his wife's.

You had a valid case but basically nowhere to fight it.

I don't know how it works in every states I must admit.

But if someone run a light with no "mitigating circumstances" and just toss the ticket away because of a "technicality", yes, I think it's unfair and kinda hypocritical.

Especially when the question comes from a rider and the alleged and punished action is very dangerous for us riders (not only for us but you got the point I guess).
All valid points and I appreciate the response.

However, such practices as red light cameras will tend to reduce the public's faith in the ethical standards those in the public trust adhere to. (read about the referendum and eventual removal of cameras in Houston.)

Maybe that's just me. But it don't seem right for those in the public trust to attempt to swindle using quasi-legal tactics in a similar fashion as patent trolls or as used in any number of schemes usually reserved for confidence tricksters.

My biggest issue is simply that it isn't a "ticket" at all. The letter has no legal standing in regard to traffic enforcement or the court system. It is just an unscrupulous bill dressed up to look like legal process with threats for unlikely recourse, which is then mailed with hopes that the recipient will feel guilty enough to pay the ransom without question.

The fact that they have an officer on payroll to review and approve who is sent the bill in order to quasi-legitimize the action while circumventing due process guarantees, is questionable, at best. As I recall, guarantees of due process are defined in the constitution, which, as I recall, is something officers swear an oath to "... defend against all enemies, both foreign and domestic."

The camera company perpetrating this scheme, and the cities trying to reap profits from it are indeed those very "domestic enemies" the oath speaks of. I believe any officer participating in this scheme is in violation of their sworn oath to defend the constitution.

I could be somewhat supportive of such cameras if they were used solely to determine the facts of a collision where there is an actual injured party. Or, if they were monitored for use to better time the lights during peak and off-peak periods, but, there isn't any profit in that.

Governments staffed by people from a capitalist society will tend to run under the principles of "profit as goal" or "increase revenue" in order to provide more and better stuff. I think this is wrong when the line is crossed to using the tactics of scammers in order to increase the revenue stream.
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Old 03-05-2014, 12:45 PM   #33
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My wife got nabbed by photo radar the other day, in her car. (allegedly running a red light, which she claims she didn't do...that she may have gone thru on a yellow) No doubt it's her car, good photo of her driving.

Where does the photo show her car exactly, with the signal being red? At the beginning, middle, or tail end of the intersection?

To me, that would sway my thoughts on the matter a bit more.

I have delberately gone through yellow lights, mea culpa. But if under any of those times I had been caught or issued a ticket, I wouldn't have argued. I knew what I was doing, and I would take my lumps.

As for "accidently" or being "surprised" by a yellow or something, well not really. I thought all, or at least most red/yellow/green signals nowadays had flashing do not walk signs or symbols, and in many cases, a countdown timer with 5-4-3-2-1 kind of very visible warning that the light was going to change.

Unless you are speeding by quite a bit, those are visible from a loooong ways away, so you know full well to begin to slow in time to stop safely.

If those are obscured by other traffic or conditions or whatever, then by rights you should be going slower before entering the intersection anyway, IMHO, for just such a reason-if you can't see everything in your path, it doesn't make sense to speed up, to me.

With no other visible warnings of a light that's about to change, I then go by how long the light has been green. You can see a green light for blocks before you get to it, and common sense tells you that the longer the light's been solid, it's only prudent to be prepared for a change as you approach it.

If nothing else, safety aside, I just wouldn't want an expensive ticket to have to fight or pay.

All of the above is based solely on a non-malicious or deliberate attempt on behalf of shady people who have deliberately dicked with the set up to simply generate revenue. That's always on my mind! :tinfoil:
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Old 03-05-2014, 12:52 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by L.B.S. View Post
I thought all, or at least most red/yellow/green signals nowadays had flashing do not walk signs or symbols, and in many cases, a countdown timer with 5-4-3-2-1 kind of very visible warning that the light was going to change.
only if there are sidewalks
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Old 03-05-2014, 12:56 PM   #35
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It's in collections. You'll find out if you ever apply for a mortgage. Ask me how I know.
I got mine from one of the cameras that have since been removed by the city. They were privately owned and the proceeds from tickets were to be shared with Phoenix. I was told, maybe incorrectly, that since the ticket I received in the mail was never issued by LE, there was no force behind it and that I would have to be served in person by an LEO for the ticket to actually be recorded. I felt I lived too far away for them to bother and besides, unless I made the stupid mistake of going online like they wanted me to, there really was no record of me ever having received it.

Now, I got all my info from the internet so of course, it's right.
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Old 03-05-2014, 01:05 PM   #36
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In many states a citation for a moving violation is a summons which must be served by an officer of the court. Check your state laws. If not served by a court officer, it's not a valid summons.

Also ask yourself why private companies are allowed access to private information reserved only for law enforcement... Civilians aren't allowed to do plate lookups but somehow they are skirting the law.
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Old 03-05-2014, 02:36 PM   #37
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Someone previously mentioned short yellows. Local municipalities often have their yellows shorter than the federal minimum to generate revenue. These tickets are usually thrown out simply by video of the light in question. Federal law trumps local. It's also be proven statistically that shorter yellows cause more accidents and vice versa. There is currently a group pushing for lengthening yellows nationally in the name of safety.
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Old 03-05-2014, 02:55 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by joexr View Post
Federal law trumps local.
Well, actually, the states created the federal government when the colonies got together and created "the constitution for the united States." The key words here being "united" and "states."

Unless there is some specific agreement made by the members of the state legislature in some specific matter, State law trumps Federal.

People are the master of the state government, states are the masters of the federal government. At least this is how it was designed. Despite popular opinion to the contrary. The President is for all practical purposes the CEO of a corporation called the U.S.A. that is hired to represent the states in negotiations between themselves and between them and foreign nations, and to provide a few other services.

Often the standards adopted by states' statutes are based upon established federal standards. This is more for convenience than it is because the fed rules the states. In regard to the duration of a yellow this could very well be a formula based on such a standard calculation.

It really bugs me how little people seem to understand the most basic, foundational aspects and limits regarding state and federal power and jurisdiction.

But it doesn't surprise me that Joexr would say something like this.
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:04 PM   #39
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The government was supposed to be FOR the people , but it is slowly becoming INSTEAD of the people. We're all just here to support the government anymore.
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:08 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
Unless . . . , State law trumps Federal.

But, but, but... In the event the Federal Gov't says "you can't do this..." (dump toxic waste, pollute the air, own nuke weapons or the like) and the State Gov't says "sure you can, here in the great State of xxx", then I thought that Fed indeed does trump State.

What am I missing?

And, I'd have to pretty much agree with LBS's take. But, if someone's been dicking around to the point where you CAN'T stop in time when travelling at the posted limit yadda yadda yadda, then yeah, that's not right either.

I'm thinking that by the next time I check in on this thread, I'll have to look down in CSM for it...
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:11 PM   #41
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The government was supposed to be FOR the people , but it is slowly becoming INSTEAD of the people. We're all just here to support the government anymore.
F the government !
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:49 PM   #42
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F the government !
And those that represent it. I love my country , but I hate my government.
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:50 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by joexr View Post
Someone previously mentioned short yellows. Local municipalities often have their yellows shorter than the federal minimum to generate revenue. These tickets are usually thrown out simply by video of the light in question. Federal law trumps local. It's also be proven statistically that shorter yellows cause more accidents and vice versa. There is currently a group pushing for lengthening yellows nationally in the name of safety.
Before this camera crap, the accepted practice was to allow 1 second of yellow for every 10 miles per hour of the speed limit. 40 mph = 4 seconds. 60 mph = 6 seconds. I personally favor additionally about 2 seconds of red all 4 ways before the green.
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:56 PM   #44
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Before this camera crap, the accepted practice was to allow 1 second of yellow for every 10 miles per hour of the speed limit. 40 mph = 4 seconds. 60 mph = 6 seconds. I personally favor additionally about 2 seconds of red all 4 ways before the green.
I was used to delayed greens , now the second one way goes red , it's green the other. And THEN six more cars go thru.
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Old 03-05-2014, 04:58 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by joexr View Post
Someone previously mentioned short yellows. Local municipalities often have their yellows shorter than the federal minimum to generate revenue. These tickets are usually thrown out simply by video of the light in question. Federal law trumps local. It's also be proven statistically that shorter yellows cause more accidents and vice versa. There is currently a group pushing for lengthening yellows nationally in the name of safety.

NHTSA has "uniform guidelines", however, they are guidelines, not laws or federally enforceable regulation

there is also AASHTO (American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials) that has recommended standards as well, again, they are recommended, not law, except that many states & municipalities have adopted these standards as their local regulation, even than, they are regulations (subject to waivers), not laws

in other words, there is no such law that you speak of
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