ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > The perfect line and other riding myths
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 03-06-2014, 07:56 AM   #61
MotoTex
Miles of Smiles
 
MotoTex's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Tool Shed
Oddometer: 1,555
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digasi View Post
All goes against the laws.
I very seriously doubt that there is any published statute with a punishment clause (fine, jail time, etc.) for running a red light.

If this is the case, then it is not a law, it is a rule of the road. Some cities have ordinances that they enforce in administrative venues. The schedule of fines for violating city ordinances are not based on statute. They are make-believe laws to keep people on the straight and narrow. Essentially, manipulation by guilt with a revenue generation angle. Hassle and cost are effective deterrents.

Please show me an instance of you finding this being a statute with teeth and it should quickly reveal itself as only being a guideline (rule of the road).

Those who don't pay the fine are not eventually arrested for running a red light, they are arrested for "failure to appear" in response to a summons. Which there is an actual statute for, with a punishment clause.

People tacitly agree to abide by the rules of the road for safety and for better traffic flow. Officers will chastise drivers with the hassle of tickets as an incentive to follow the rules. Every traffic citation that has no actual injured party can be beaten as there will be jurisdictional flaws.

Though honestly, in most cases paying the fine is much less hassle than would be using the court system to demonstrate that the court has no jurisdiction in the matter.

Just to be clear, I think the rules of the road are a good idea. Drivers need to follow them in order for things to be safe and for traffic to flow well.

Likewise, on any give day there will be circumstances where bending or breaking the rule might be necessary or even prudent to keep traffic flowing or to prevent a collision or an injury. Each driver needs to assess each situation and decide what is best in that moment. Some blanket set of rules cannot accommodate for such a dynamic environment. The "laws" are structured with this in mind.
__________________

This is The Internet. Confirm for yourself anything you may see while visiting this strange and uncertain land.

MotoTex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 08:32 AM   #62
ttpete
Rectum Non Bustibus
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Dearborn, MI
Oddometer: 5,338
Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
I very seriously doubt that there is any published statute with a punishment clause (fine, jail time, etc.) for running a red light.

If this is the case, then it is not a law, it is a rule of the road. Some cities have ordinances that they enforce in administrative venues. The schedule of fines for violating city ordinances are not based on statute. They are make-believe laws to keep people on the straight and narrow. Essentially, manipulation by guilt with a revenue generation angle. Hassle and cost are effective deterrents.

Please show me an instance of you finding this being a statute with teeth and it should quickly reveal itself as only being a guideline (rule of the road).

Those who don't pay the fine are not eventually arrested for running a red light, they are arrested for "failure to appear" in response to a summons. Which there is an actual statute for, with a punishment clause.

People tacitly agree to abide by the rules of the road for safety and for better traffic flow. Officers will chastise drivers with the hassle of tickets as an incentive to follow the rules. Every traffic citation that has no actual injured party can be beaten as there will be jurisdictional flaws.

Though honestly, in most cases paying the fine is much less hassle than would be using the court system to demonstrate that the court has no jurisdiction in the matter.

Just to be clear, I think the rules of the road are a good idea. Drivers need to follow them in order for things to be safe and for traffic to flow well.

Likewise, on any give day there will be circumstances where bending or breaking the rule might be necessary or even prudent to keep traffic flowing or to prevent a collision or an injury. Each driver needs to assess each situation and decide what is best in that moment. Some blanket set of rules cannot accommodate for such a dynamic environment. The "laws" are structured with this in mind.
In MI, the state makes the traffic laws. These and every regulation concerning vehicles reside in a large book called the Michigan Vehicle Code.

Minor traffic violations are civil infractions, not crimes. When an officer writes a citation, your act of accepting it is recognized as a personal bond that you will either pay the fine or arrange to appear in court. Failure to do either will result in a bench warrant to be issued and you'll not be able to renew your driver's license or obtain a license plate renewal until the matter is settled. If you're stopped and the warrant comes up, the nice officer will take you and hold you until you make bail. Your car will also be impounded.

Simple, no?
__________________
10 Ducati 1098 Streetfighter S - "Sleipnir"
09 Kaw Versys
67 Triumph Bonneville TT Special
"The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money" _____ Margaret Thatcher
ttpete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 08:35 AM   #63
joexr
Banned
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: S.E.
Oddometer: 3,773
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttpete View Post
Simple, no?
Yes , he is.
joexr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 08:49 AM   #64
MotoTex
Miles of Smiles
 
MotoTex's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Tool Shed
Oddometer: 1,555
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttpete View Post
In MI, the state makes the traffic laws. These and every regulation concerning vehicles reside in a large book called the Michigan Vehicle Code.

Minor traffic violations are civil infractions, not crimes. When an officer writes a citation, your act of accepting it is recognized as a personal bond that you will either pay the fine or arrange to appear in court. Failure to do either will result in a bench warrant to be issued and you'll not be able to renew your driver's license or obtain a license plate renewal until the matter is settled. If you're stopped and the warrant comes up, the nice officer will take you and hold you until you make bail. Your car will also be impounded.

Simple, no?
Right. All the consequences you list have to do with violating the terms of the contract you agreed to when you accept the citation. It has nothing to do with the red light. This is the fly in the ointment for the Red Light Cameras, there is no contract to force you to do anything. This is why they can't use the court system in the same way a written citation can. There is no meeting of the minds in agreement to the terms of a contract.

"No state shall make any law ... impairing the obligation to contract ..." is in the constitution. You can contract yourself into slavery if you so desire and the constitution will support your right to do so. Contract is above statuatory law. This is the basis of Common Law, which is the foundation of our legal system.

If you agree with someone else to do something, especially when in writing, you can be brought to court for not doing what you contracted to do.

All such "enforcement" is based upon the presumption of a contract which may, or may not, exist. The statutes are written to accommodate this. To the point that some things may be presumed true, even if they are actually false, if nobody claims otherwise.

It has nothing to do with any "law" against running the red light, speeding, etc. There is no such law.

Being summoned to court to demonstrate that there is no such law, and ignoring the summons you agreed to, is in violation of an actual statute.

Welcome to Wonderland.
__________________

This is The Internet. Confirm for yourself anything you may see while visiting this strange and uncertain land.

MotoTex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 08:56 AM   #65
randyo
Beastly Adventurer
 
randyo's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Northern NewEngland
Oddometer: 1,453
Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoTex View Post
Right. All the consequences you list have to do with violating the terms of the contract you agreed to when you accept the citation. It has nothing to do with the red light. This is the fly in the ointment for the Red Light Cameras, there is no contract to force you to do anything. This is why they can't use the court system in the same way a written citation can. There is no meeting of the minds in agreement to the terms of a contract.

"No state shall make any law ... impairing the obligation to contract ..." is in the constitution. You can contract yourself into slavery if you so desire and the constitution will support your right to do so. Contract is above statuatory law. This is the basis of Common Law, which is the foundation of our legal system.

If you agree with someone else to do something, especially when in writing, you can be brought to court for not doing what you contracted to do.

All such "enforcement" is based upon the presumption of a contract which may, or may not, exist. The statutes are written to accommodate this. To the point that some things may be presumed true, even if they are actually false, if nobody claims otherwise.

It has nothing to do with any "law" against running the red light, speeding, etc. There is no such law.

Being summoned to court to demonstrate that there is no such law, and ignoring the summons you agreed to, is in violation of an actual statute.

Welcome to Wonderland.
um, you made a contract to obey traffic codes when you obtained your drivers license
__________________
RandyO
IBA # 9560
07 VeeStrom
99 SV650
82 XV920R
A man with a gun is a citizen
A man without a gun is a subject
randyo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 09:10 AM   #66
MotoTex
Miles of Smiles
 
MotoTex's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Tool Shed
Oddometer: 1,555
Quote:
Originally Posted by randyo View Post
um, you made a contract to obey traffic codes when you obtained your drivers license
I don't remember seeing the terms of that contract when I made the license application. If you have such terms in writing, please show me what you have to support this claim as being other than a mere presumption of a contract.

I do remember being tested to prove that I understand the rules of the road, but there was nothing I recall beyond that.

Otherwise, I believe you are mistaken in the belief that such a contract exists regarding licensing. And, I have successfully demonstrated this strategy, in court. A couple of times.

The system depends upon people believing this sort of thing in order to keep the skids greased. It makes most people feel better to believe this is true. It is a well implemented system that effectively generates revenue and inspires compliance. Overall this is a good thing. But there is no actual binding contract beyond the tacit presumption of one in folks minds. It may be a contract someone makes with themselves. But that is a personal matter and not one of law.
__________________

This is The Internet. Confirm for yourself anything you may see while visiting this strange and uncertain land.

MotoTex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 09:11 AM   #67
Yossarian™
Deputy Cultural Attaché
 
Yossarian™'s Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: the 'Ha
Oddometer: 9,411
Quote:
Originally Posted by randyo View Post
um, you made a contract to obey traffic codes when you obtained your drivers license
Not true.

Especially not true in the case of legal minors, who can hold a driver's license before they are legally allowed to enter into a contract.
__________________
Successfully surviving motorcycling since 1976.
Yossarian™ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 09:20 AM   #68
randyo
Beastly Adventurer
 
randyo's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Northern NewEngland
Oddometer: 1,453
its an implied contract

just like implied consent for BAC testing

do they not teach this stuff in school anymore ?
__________________
RandyO
IBA # 9560
07 VeeStrom
99 SV650
82 XV920R
A man with a gun is a citizen
A man without a gun is a subject
randyo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 09:28 AM   #69
amycyclenut
Gnarly Adventurer
 
amycyclenut's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Denver CO
Oddometer: 112
In Colorado (well at least Denver metroplex), we have vans that sit on the side of the road with cameras. An officer has to be in the van and signs the ticket. The max fine they can issue via this method is $25.00, regardless of speed. I'm sure it's more in school zones. Not sure on red light tickets though.
__________________
2012 F800R
1986 FZ600
1974 CB450
1974 RD350
sold: 1970 CB350, 1972 CB175, 2009 Vespa S 150
amycyclenut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 09:28 AM   #70
Yossarian™
Deputy Cultural Attaché
 
Yossarian™'s Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: the 'Ha
Oddometer: 9,411
Quote:
Originally Posted by randyo View Post
its an implied contract

just like implied consent for BAC testing

do they not teach this stuff in school anymore ?
Implied consent is not the legal equivalent of a contract. A contract, whether verbal or written, is expressed consent.

My school taught me the difference.
__________________
Successfully surviving motorcycling since 1976.
Yossarian™ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 09:32 AM   #71
randyo
Beastly Adventurer
 
randyo's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Northern NewEngland
Oddometer: 1,453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian™ View Post
Implied consent is not the legal equivalent of a contract. A contract, whether verbal or written, is expressed consent.

My school taught me the difference.
there is an implied contract when you knowingly accept a benefit from another party, whether or not there is anything written or verbal
__________________
RandyO
IBA # 9560
07 VeeStrom
99 SV650
82 XV920R
A man with a gun is a citizen
A man without a gun is a subject
randyo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 09:38 AM   #72
Yossarian™
Deputy Cultural Attaché
 
Yossarian™'s Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: the 'Ha
Oddometer: 9,411
Quote:
Originally Posted by randyo View Post
there is an implied contract when you knowingly accept a benefit from another party, whether or not there is anything written or verbal
So I give you a dollar, creating an implied contact?

Sorry, I'm quitting on this little bit of argument; it's way off the rails regarding the point of this thread.
__________________
Successfully surviving motorcycling since 1976.
Yossarian™ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 10:17 AM   #73
randyo
Beastly Adventurer
 
randyo's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2007
Location: Northern NewEngland
Oddometer: 1,453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian™ View Post
So I give you a dollar, creating an implied contact?

Sorry, I'm quitting on this little bit of argument; it's way off the rails regarding the point of this thread.
no, that would be a gift

as I said, a drivers license is a contract with the state

http://www.businessdictionary.com/de...-contract.html

Quote:
A legally enforceable agreement that arises from conduct, from assumed intentions, from some relationship among the immediate parties, or from the application of the legal principle of equity.
For example, a contract is implied when a party knowingly accepts a benefit from another party in circumstances where the benefit cannot be considered a gift. Therefore, the party accepting the benefit is under a legal obligation to give fair value for the benefit received. Opposite of express contract. See also express contract, implied in fact contract, and implied in law contract.
__________________
RandyO
IBA # 9560
07 VeeStrom
99 SV650
82 XV920R
A man with a gun is a citizen
A man without a gun is a subject
randyo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 01:01 PM   #74
SgtDuster
Beastly Adventurer
 
SgtDuster's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2010
Oddometer: 2,961
Damn...whatever what the law says or not. No matter how the whole process can be deconstructed or not, no matter if this fine has solid legal ground or not.

DID SHE RUN THIS DAMN LIGHT?


Yes? Ask her (Wait, you're not her father, right? She's an adult, right?) to pay the fine and be done with it!

No? Tell her to prepare her defense and fight it.



Is it that hard to accept the consequences of your own actions these days?!
__________________
2010 Buell Ulysses
1984 Suzuki GR650 "Tempter"
SgtDuster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 01:24 PM   #75
KirkN
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Northeast Orlando
Oddometer: 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtDuster View Post
Damn...whatever what the law says or not. No matter how the whole process can be deconstructed or not, no matter if this fine has solid legal ground or not.

DID SHE RUN THIS DAMN LIGHT?


Yes? Ask her (Wait, you're not her father, right? She's an adult, right?) to pay the fine and be done with it!

No? Tell her to prepare her defense and fight it.



Is it that hard to accept the consequences of your own actions these days?!
Of course it is! Yeah, I ran the red light, but it wasn't a legitimate collar, so I walk...

OTOH, rules of evidence and evidence collection are ALWAYS that way - hey, if you didn't have a warrant, you can't use what you found against me yadda yadda yadda

Hmmm.........
KirkN is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 10:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014