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Old 03-17-2014, 09:48 PM   #46
tapdiggy
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Semantics and Mathematics

Quote:
Originally Posted by joexr View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
If they screw things up or things are screwed up by circumstances they can't control, there are 60% left. For you there are 10% left.
Not if 40% is their best. That's what everyone has been trying to get through to you . Here and elsewhere. You can obviously count , you just don't know what the numbers mean. Or are ashamed to admit to it.
Numbers lack an agenda.They do not make implications. Insult people if you must; just don't use biased maths to do so.
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Old 03-18-2014, 08:31 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Sparrowhawk View Post
Sounds like we share some experiences. Upgrading from a Honda 305 Superhawk, I rode my H1 for quite a few years and then moved up to a R100 (hinge frame to rubber cow). All of these old bikes rewarded smooth technique and would get unsettled mid corner on anything but smooth pavement in their own unique way.

On a smooth right-hander the H1 would throw a beautiful shower of sparks as the center stand grounded. Left side was trickier because the pipes would lever the rear tire off the ground.

Never cut the throttle mid corner on an old Beemer.
No centre stand, custom chambers and a K81 Dunlop on the rear.(triangular cross section)
Drop it onto the side of the tyre push the handlebar, continue to wind the throttle and hang on.

Oddly my G/S pumps slightly more horsepower, is significantly lighter and runs a slightly higher top speed yet feels nowhere near as quick and 1/4 mile times confirm that.
Handling on high speed corners is not as good as the H1.
The saving grace of the G/S is its predicability and the ease with which it transitions in between slide & traction.
It also does better monos than the H1 which always seemed to be a battle to keep the front down.
The G/S is comfortable with the front wheel lofted although it is somewhat dificult to get it off the ground.

Niether bike would tolerate cutting the throttle mid corner.

Are we any closer to defining good handling yet??
The definition has always eluded me
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Old 03-18-2014, 10:27 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Rucksta View Post
No centre stand, custom chambers and a K81 Dunlop on the rear.(triangular cross section)
Drop it onto the side of the tyre push the handlebar, continue to wind the throttle and hang on.

Handling on high speed corners is not as good as the H1.
The saving grace of the G/S is its predicability and the ease with which it transitions in between slide & traction.
It also does better monos than the H1 which always seemed to be a battle to keep the front down.
The G/S is comfortable with the front wheel lofted although it is somewhat dificult to get it off the ground.

Niether bike would tolerate cutting the throttle mid corner.

Are we any closer to defining good handling yet??
The definition has always eluded me
Kind of like with old 2 stroke motocrossers - the 250 was faster and more powerful, but the 125s were a kick to ride just to try to stay on pipe and flying! You could feel like you were flying, then some 250 or open classer motors by almost at a relaxed pace!

Maybe that's what better handling is - being able to maintain the same pace in a more relaxed way. Whether it is cruising easily across a long straight desert road or weaving between trees.
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Old 03-18-2014, 02:02 PM   #49
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Good handling is the best trade off between being able to use all of the tire's available traction in as many situations as possible while giving the rider the most predictable, and therefor confidence inspiring ride.
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Old 03-18-2014, 03:12 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Rucksta View Post
Are we any closer to defining good handling yet??
The definition has always eluded me
I though the simple statement in a previous post "ride through a curve with some bumps at a good clip and you will know for sure" actually pretty well summed it up for me.
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Old 03-19-2014, 01:03 PM   #51
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Car tire

@mark53 I have never understood the hatred and emotionalism show when the subject of using car tire on a motorcycle is discussed. No one is advocating using a car tire on a sport bike. That is a straw man argument. To my knowledge, only cruiser riders use car tires, as most cruisers have a very limited lean angle and are not ridden with the enthusiasm that some sport bikes are. The extended tire life, lower cost, smoother ride, and much better rear braking are are all advantages with a cruiser. Years ago, motorcycles came with "car tires" and no one thought anything of it. Most who try it like it. It's your ride, use what works for you.
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Old 03-19-2014, 07:09 PM   #52
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@mark53 I have never understood the hatred and emotionalism show (you mean shown, right?) when the subject of using car tire on a motorcycle is discussed.
For me, it's that a car tire will never allow the agility inherent to motorcycles, on motorcycle tires, to avoid immediate dangers when the motorcycle MUST be leaned controllably. I want all the best handling attributes that a motorcycle has to offer when/if an emergency presents itself.

If you guys want to run car tires then it's no skin off of my nose. For me, I will not use car tires since it could be skin off of my nose in an emergency.

And, NO, your risk/reward assessment won't change my mind about car tires.
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Old 03-19-2014, 07:22 PM   #53
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If the Darksiders really knew what they were doing they'd stretch and lower their bikes as well for the full blown ill handling effect.
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Old 03-20-2014, 06:42 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by sloryder View Post
@mark53 I have never understood the hatred and emotionalism show when the subject of using car tire on a motorcycle is discussed. No one is advocating using a car tire on a sport bike. That is a straw man argument. To my knowledge, only cruiser riders use car tires, as most cruisers have a very limited lean angle and are not ridden with the enthusiasm that some sport bikes are. The extended tire life, lower cost, smoother ride, and much better rear braking are are all advantages with a cruiser. Years ago, motorcycles came with "car tires" and no one thought anything of it. Most who try it like it. It's your ride, use what works for you.

much more than cruisers, plenty of sport tour bikes and even adventure bikes like V-stroms

Car tires do not limit lean angle
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Old 03-20-2014, 10:37 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by sloryder View Post
@mark53 I have never understood the hatred and emotionalism show when the subject of using car tire on a motorcycle is discussed. No one is advocating using a car tire on a sport bike. That is a straw man argument. To my knowledge, only cruiser riders use car tires, as most cruisers have a very limited lean angle and are not ridden with the enthusiasm that some sport bikes are. The extended tire life, lower cost, smoother ride, and much better rear braking are are all advantages with a cruiser. Years ago, motorcycles came with "car tires" and no one thought anything of it. Most who try it like it. It's your ride, use what works for you.

And?

Maybe I'm missing something here.
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Old 03-20-2014, 10:42 AM   #56
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much more than cruisers, plenty of sport tour bikes and even adventure bikes like V-stroms

Car tires do not limit lean angle

Show me someone on a sportbike dragging an elbow running a car tire and I will believe you. Much like I'd believe they really handle curves like a motorcycle tire if I saw some racer running car tires on their two wheel motorcycle. Till then it's just someone's opinion as opposed to fact.

As I've often said, if I lived in the flat lands I'd probably run a car tire for wear. I don't and I have enough engineering sense to know that a square profile tire will not handle well for the way I ride. That and having run squared off trials patterns on bikes I'd ridden that demonstrated the undesirable characteristics...
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Old 03-20-2014, 10:45 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by joexr View Post
If the Darksiders really knew what they were doing they'd stretch and lower their bikes as well for the full blown ill handling effect.
I think many do know what they're doing and in many cases it makes total sense. But the rationalization that they work as good as a motorcycle tire in smooth handling... nah. If it was true motorcycle tires would all be squared profiles like car tires.
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Old 03-20-2014, 01:44 PM   #58
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Show me
not dragging an elbow, YellowWolfe is putting his wing thru the same paces and the sportbike & motard in front of him

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Old 03-20-2014, 05:06 PM   #59
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not dragging an elbow, YellowWolfe is putting his wing thru the same paces and the sportbike & motard in front of him




Same old shit... different day... he's riding the nuts off of that Wing, the others are running a good pace. when they got in switchbacks the bikes in front started to pull away pretty hard on him and they had more to go. He was holding up the guy behind him in corners. Just looks like a cruise for the other riders. Oh, yes I have ridden Wings before having owned a few of the 1100 versions. There is no way they can stay with a decent naked bike (like my old Nighthawk S) much less a sport bike ridden at the same level of effort. The Wing did a good job of pulling strong on the straights.

I will give you that a car tire can be leaned over fairly far, but so can a scooter or moped, just not fast. I'm betting any sport bike that would be behind that Wing would still have more to go and, beeping the horn to pass! We've been behind tourers on winding roads where they're leaning fairly hard, some even scraping. We're riding dual sports behind them chomping at the bit for a chance to get by, because we're barely tipping off center in those same corners. It may be exciting to them, but it's boringly slow for us.

I would be curious if a decent rider ran lap times with his bike running a car tire then run with a bike tire and just see what the true comparison is. My money would be on faster lap times with the bike tire.


Show me something like this with a car tire at similar speed and I might be suckered into believing it is on par with a motorcycle tire.




As much as you might dream that a car tire will handle corners at the same speed and lean angle of a sport bike at speed, it just ain't gonna happen.

No more likely than a BMW R1200GS winning an open class motocross race.

Sure it can run the track, but it can't do the speed. That Wing can lean, but not at the speed that a sport bike can, therefore the tire cannot do the job that the bike tire does. I'm betting those guys running sport bikes with car tires can't run as fast and hard as they can with the bike tires.

Again, if it was possible, serious sport bike riders, track day riders, and racers would run that kind of tire. No amount of Gold Wing or Valkyrie videos will change that lack of performance. Show me a video of a GSXR with a car tire on it chasing a similar sport bike cornering hard at the same speed in the same corners. Then I'll believe it.

I will still say I would probably run a car tire on a bike if I did a lot of flatter road riding, but the riding I do just is not conducive to a squared off profile. I can feel a distinct difference when my tires get flattened a bit in the center. And I have ridden the square profile trials pattern tires on the road and know how they work - not as good as a decent dual sport tire with a rounder profile does.

Oh, one more analogy. My dual sport tires run well off road, but the fact is any knobby will do better - period!
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markk53 screwed with this post 03-20-2014 at 05:15 PM
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Old 03-20-2014, 05:33 PM   #60
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Still the handling of the Wing with the car tire seems quite good for touring, which was what I took to be the point. It is hardly reasonable to expect a heavy touring motorcycle with a car tire to be in the same performance class as the canyon carvers.
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