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Old 03-20-2014, 06:05 PM   #46
simonm2211
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Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
If I was to go out driving in Sydney after say 10 p.m. on a Friday or Saturday night I would expect to have a 50:50 chance of being stopped by a breath test checkpoint. I was last stopped and checked about a week ago on a week day about 11am.
I highly doubt that you have a 50/50 chance of being pulled over under those circumstances if you are just going to and from a place. If that was true, cab drivers would be pulled over many times each night and 50% of all drivers on the road would be reporting being pulled over. 5% would be a high number and an effective deterrent. 1% would probably deter most rational people.
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Old 03-20-2014, 11:51 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by simonm2211 View Post
I highly doubt that you have a 50/50 chance of being pulled over under those circumstances if you are just going to and from a place. If that was true, cab drivers would be pulled over many times each night and 50% of all drivers on the road would be reporting being pulled over. 5% would be a high number and an effective deterrent. 1% would probably deter most rational people.
You're no doubt familiar with the random breath testing process used in Sydney, which is similar to the rest of Australia. Certainly it would be more correct to say you have a 50:50 chance of passing a random breath checkpoint after 9pm on a Friday or Saturday night if travelling any distance across the city. You can pass through them without being stopped if they already have a full quota of 'customers', typically 8-10 cars. Takes em about a minute to test the lot with one cop per car. Less time than stopping at traffic lights. Earlier in the night when the traffic is heavy perhaps on average only 1 in 20 cars passing through the checkpoint on a major road gets stopped. Later in the night when the traffic is lighter perhaps every second car, real late just about every car gets tested.

If you drive around Sydney on a Friday or Saturday night for any distance you will more than likely pass at least one random breath checkpoint. I couldn't tell you how many are operating across the city, only that its a lot. You may not be stopped, it may even be on the other side of the road, but just passing one is as effective as a deterrent as actually being stopped and tested. They stay for no more than an hour in any one place and constantly move so they appear to be everywhere. They can set up and move in minutes. These are major operations staffed by anything up to 20 police, mobile test bus for those who fail the initial test, and a stack of high performance patrol cars and bikes (just to deter anyone thinking of doing a runner).

And yes, while a cab driver in Sydney may not get tested at all one Saturday night, they could be tested two or three times the following Saturday night.

If anywhere truly wants to get drunks of the road, and the leaders have the political courage, the model of how to do it has been well sorted. My kids are now in their early twenties, and neither they or their friends would ever contemplate drinking and driving in Sydney. This isn't because of the penalty, its because of the high likelihood of detection. It is the complete opposite now to how it was when I was their age. The effectiveness of random breath testing has been so great that the major licensed clubs had to respond with free all night shuttle buses to take patrons home in response to the drop of in the number of people going out to drink. Every club in my area has a free shuttle bus that runs about every 30 minutes and will take you to your front door.

JohnCW screwed with this post 03-21-2014 at 07:16 AM
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Old 03-21-2014, 05:32 PM   #48
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I don't agree with the whole premise of this thread, however....

Graduated licensing SUCKS. It's based upon the premise that the gov't knows best, and is a landslide of paperwork and hassle, and the next thing you know you've got a system like in Quebec... (If you don't know what it is, look it up. It's terrible, at least for new motorcyclists.)

Here's a really simple solution to the problem being discussed.

If you, while driving a vehicle, whether under the influence of drugs, alcohol, cell phone, etc, cause damage to property or persons, get to pay all damages.

What galls me about the DUI worry-warts is this: I've been nearly killed on more than one occasion by drivers that were NOT 'under the influence' of anything, and therefore, nothing could be done to them. People act like these 'drunk drivers' are so much more of a threat, and honestly, that just isn't so. Not only that, but in Wyoming (I lived there) up until a couple years ago there was NO DUI law. None, whatsoever. You know what? It just plain wasn't that big of a deal.

Instead of focusing on ONE minor issue, why not focus on the more widespread issue of people driving stupidly, regardless of whether they are drunk or whatever? If you cause damage to property or persons while driving anything with a motor, you're on the hook. That'll encourage people to drive more safely, AND doesn't involve feel-good legislation that doesn't actually have any real affect in the real world.

Keep in mind, DUI is already illegal. If someone is going to do that in the first place, just what makes you think they're gonna abide by asinine CC restrictions, etc.
Good stuff here. I'd love to see more posts like this one.
The debate of restitution vs revenge is age old.


Penalizing is the hallmark of a vindictive society, driven more to punish than to rehabilitate.

Restitution (repair damages), coupled with education, has proven to be a very effective way. Yet, it is a long way, that involves commitment and a resolve to prevent harmful incidents.

Penalizing has an immediate, noticeable effect. Albeit shortlived, it is nevertheless seen as success. Fines are often regarded as a guaranteed form of substantial income, a handsome alternative to direct taxing. And thus there is no incentive to change the behaviour of people. What can be more cynical?
Finally penalizing is in essence an admittance of failure and is primarily driven by a lust for revenge. It can therefore be characterized as a sign of weakness. Totally unproductive, yet it remains the preferred stick of many society, which tells a lot about its level of civilization.

What is the best way to train a horse, a dog, your pet? Whip or whisperer?
Can you truly beat children into model citizens?
Punishment, whether physical, psychological, financial or otherwise, relies on submission that will always instill a sense of revolt.

Therefore a society should focus on education and restitution; keeping punishment as a final option, when all others have failed, administrated with humbleness.
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Old 03-21-2014, 06:26 PM   #49
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You're no doubt familiar with the random breath testing process used in Sydney, which is similar to the rest of Australia.
Yes mate, I am. I lived there for 18 years. I was being a little picky pulling you up on the 50% thing - didn't mean to sound like a dick.

I am kind of ambivalent on the whole DUI deal. I have lived in the Texas a long time too and find the Australian attitude to road laws overly draconian. I don't object to RBT, but I hate to give up any freedom and then watch the politicians and police slowly turn up the heat on us frogs in the pot until you are being booked for doing 64km/h in a 60 zone by a speed camera. I don't trust the legislators to stop once they get started.
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Old 03-21-2014, 06:50 PM   #50
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Yes mate, I am. I lived there for 18 years. I was being a little picky pulling you up on the 50% thing - didn't mean to sound like a dick.

I am kind of ambivalent on the whole DUI deal. I have lived in the Texas a long time too and find the Australian attitude to road laws overly draconian. I don't object to RBT, but I hate to give up any freedom and then watch the politicians and police slowly turn up the heat on us frogs in the pot until you are being booked for doing 64km/h in a 60 zone by a speed camera. I don't trust the legislators to stop once they get started.
Then you would know that RBT has virtually total community support in Australia. The community greatly values the freedom to drive on roads free from irresponsible drunks, and doesn't give one hoot about any one individuals 'freedom' to do it. We elect people to reflect the communities wishes, and in this case that is what they have done.

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Old 03-21-2014, 08:44 PM   #51
simonm2211
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Then you would know that RBT has virtually total community support in Australia.
Yep, shame they didn't stop there.
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Old 03-22-2014, 08:39 AM   #52
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Locally, this fine specimen of a human was released lately after serving 7 years for killing two people after drinking all day in a pub. He states that he will continue to drink and drive. He has since been arrested twice for being in a liquor store and breaking curfew.

Texting drivers aren't much better. The law should be stiffer for those assholes too.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...yees-1.2504372

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...gain-1.2569181
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Old 03-22-2014, 11:01 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by TheDrifter View Post
Graduated licensing SUCKS. It's based upon the premise that the gov't knows best, and is a landslide of paperwork and hassle, and the next thing you know you've got a system like in Quebec... (If you don't know what it is, look it up. It's terrible, at least for new motorcyclists.)
Huh?!

So a 16 years old full of testorenone kid should receive a full car license, with no restrictions and/or real practice and experience at all?

The riding course is mandatory, who's against that? You can obtain a FULL (no ccs restriction or whatever) after only one season, it's not that big of a deal to me.

OK, the system isn't perfect but being cited as the worst exemple?

A lot of persons on this forum praise the Euro system, but in a lot of countries there the tiered system is a lot more restrictive than in Quebec.
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Old 03-22-2014, 11:42 AM   #54
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Huh?!

So a 16 years old full of testorenone kid should receive a full car license, with no restrictions and/or real practice and experience at all?.
and why doesn't he have experience? did he not get a learners permit at 15 ?
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Old 03-22-2014, 11:46 AM   #55
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There should be SKILL LEVEL testing. By the time I was 16 I had already been riding for 9 years.
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Old 03-22-2014, 07:45 PM   #56
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and why doesn't he have experience? did he not get a learners permit at 15 ?
First of all, no, not at 15 but 16.

But what is a learner permit if it's not a part of a "graduated" licensing process?
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Old 03-22-2014, 10:03 PM   #57
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Old 03-22-2014, 10:43 PM   #58
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I got a DUI in August 2010 when I crashed my bike into a jersey barrier going 90. I luckily did not kill anyone, but I tell you what, there were times I thought about killing myself when dealing with the repercussions from my decision to drink and ride. Lost my jobs, lost my residence, lost my bank account etc etc etc.

Now...four years later, I am still dealing with that decision even though I am going on three years sobriety. After telling someone I've been convicted of a DUI, in my experience, the majority no longer look at me the same way. That is a tough thing to gut, and it reminds me of how I treated people after finding out they were convicted of a DUI. But you know what? I fucked up. And I payed the price. I am STILL paying the price. People mess up while driving-sober or not, texting or not- It sucks, but its life. Live and learn.

That being said I have no idea how I'd react if someone from my family got killed by a drunk driver. Devastating. I'm sorry to read that some members on here have gone through that experience. Its terrible
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Old 03-22-2014, 10:50 PM   #59
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I got a DUI in August 2010 when I crashed my bike into a jersey barrier going 90. I luckily did not kill anyone, but I tell you what, there were times I thought about killing myself when dealing with the repercussions from my decision to drink and ride. Lost my jobs, lost my residence, lost my bank account etc etc etc.

Now...four years later, I am still dealing with that decision even though I am going on three years sobriety. After telling someone I've been convicted of a DUI, in my experience, the majority no longer look at me the same way. That is a tough thing to gut, and it reminds me of how I treated people after finding out they were convicted of a DUI. But you know what? I fucked up. And I payed the price. I am STILL paying the price. People mess up while driving-sober or not, texting or not- It sucks, but its life. Live and learn.

That being said I have no idea how I'd react if someone from my family got killed by a drunk driver. Devastating. I'm sorry to read that some members on here have gone through that experience. Its terrible
It's sad that for a one-time mistake, the repercussions are so bad. It seems that the real problem (And part of the reason there are such repercussions) isn't with the "Oops, I'll never do that again" crowd. It's those without the self control. Those who will be right back at the bar next weekend, with their car, no license, even after destroying their ride, someone else's ride (Which as we all know, could be their ONLY way to work) or worse, someone else's life.

I think THOSE people, are the reason we have a (So far) four page thread looking for things to do to restrict those repeat offenders.

I thought of something riding home from work last week - those who keep re-offending, either DUI or... DWT (driving while texting??) and keep driving even after having their license taken away, why don't we take their cars? Auction them off. Put them on a database that keeps them from buying/tagging another, unless it has two wheels, and is less than 250 cc.
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Old 03-22-2014, 10:58 PM   #60
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I think a major problem with alcohol/drug addictions in America is we treat them like a crime rather than a medical condition. It pressures people away from receiving the treatment they need and can put them into hard situations that will cause them to turn further to their addiction.

Drunk driving should still be criminal, I'm not saying that it shouldn't be. I'm just saying that the general attitude towards drugs should change.

You can say "well, they shouldn't have started in the first place", but that doesn't help us get anywhere. Jail is not an effective method of drug rehab. It is more effective and much cheaper to get them actual therapy for their problem.

Most drugs should remain illegal, but the handling of these circumstances should change.
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