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Old 03-23-2014, 08:09 PM   #16
SkiFastBadly
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Originally Posted by Anonawesome View Post
Okay, first off, I haven't even finished reading the first sentence but I feel the need to stop here and personally thank you for not saying "for all intensive purposes". I will now continue reading...
Irregardless, I could care less.
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Old 03-23-2014, 09:50 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Wraith Rider View Post
Turn? A stock GS already is.
If one said a Blade or Duke is hard to turn into a commuter, ok, I can see why, but a GS?
What I mean is, that there are common things a commuter needs to do in order to be practical to most people- these can range from adding panniers and racks to riding two up to wearing longer-range/economy tires easily, and to some extent being maintainable by its owner should the owner choose to do so. Without those capabilities, a bike will turn into a toy for the majority of people who aren't willing to build their entire lives around riding a motorcycle. But with those capabilities, a bike can easily be tailored to fit someone's life and be used as a proper all-around vehicle and not just a toy. In the old days standards were the best for this- now we really don't have them (or rather, not many of them).

I'm alleging DS bikes are the type of bike that now fills that "do it all" void left by the specialization of sportbikes, sport and lux tourers, dirtbikes, and cruisers. The fact that they can do dirt better than almost any car is just a bonus that's also (sometimes) practical .

The GS fits that role too.

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Irregardless, I could care less.


That is my pet peeve on CL ads. Well, that and "good conditions". And maybe "For sell".
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Old 03-23-2014, 10:42 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Kiba View Post
What I mean is, that there are common things a commuter needs to do in order to be practical to most people- these can range from adding panniers and racks to riding two up to wearing longer-range/economy tires easily, and to some extent being maintainable by its owner should the owner choose to do so. Without those capabilities, a bike will turn into a toy for the majority of people who aren't willing to build their entire lives around riding a motorcycle. But with those capabilities, a bike can easily be tailored to fit someone's life and be used as a proper all-around vehicle and not just a toy. In the old days standards were the best for this- now we really don't have them (or rather, not many of them).

I'm alleging DS bikes are the type of bike that now fills that "do it all" void left by the specialization of sportbikes, sport and lux tourers, dirtbikes, and cruisers. The fact that they can do dirt better than almost any car is just a bonus that's also (sometimes) practical .
I can see how sport bikes, dirt bikes and some of the sportier nakeds don't fit that role (though for my commuting a sport bike with a top case instead of the pillion seat would be enough). But any kind of tourer, luxury or sport, cruiser and most nakeds have these named capabilities.
I don't think there's an advantage to the ADV style bikes.
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Old 03-24-2014, 05:12 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Anonawesome View Post
Okay, first off, I haven't even finished reading the first sentence but I feel the need to stop here and personally thank you for not saying "for all intensive purposes". I will now continue reading...

Well,...

When you consider the OP is about dual sports...

It really could have been quite literally "for all intensive purposes"...


I do think I get what you're saying. Kind of like definaitely (or however "definitely" is butchered). Just have to get over myself though and move on...



Oh, and by the way, I do agree that dual sports and lower cost adventure bikes are the new standard. Standard seating, capable of carrying a bunch of crap, can be fitted with windshields, and so on. Much like the Honda 350 and 750 among others. The key is partly the seating. They have a more open seating much like the 70s standards. The new naked bikes have peg positioning more like a sportbike than a standard. Sport tourers much the same.

Honda is somewhat redefining it by making a basic bike in differing forms of "dress", with the standard having more open riding than rear set peg set up.
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Old 03-24-2014, 11:55 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
Oh, and by the way, I do agree that dual sports and lower cost adventure bikes are the new standard. Standard seating, capable of carrying a bunch of crap, can be fitted with windshields, and so on. Much like the Honda 350 and 750 among others. The key is partly the seating. They have a more open seating much like the 70s standards. The new naked bikes have peg positioning more like a sportbike than a standard. Sport tourers much the same.

Honda is somewhat redefining it by making a basic bike in differing forms of "dress", with the standard having more open riding than rear set peg set up.
LOL Que?

Lower cost ADV bikes?

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Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
Standard seating, capable of carrying a bunch of crap, can be fitted with windshields, and so on.
That statement would describe either KTM 1190 or R1200GS/GSA, Multistrada, Grisso, etc. to a tee.

Dual sports and ADV tourers are the Cute UTEs of the motorcycle world, on every iteration they get more road friendly and less dirt oriented.

Some manufacturers just can't give a damn about the 1% that will take their ADV tourers off road (Kawasaki, Ducati, Moto Guzzi... the later two are not cheap by any means) and just went and designed road bikes.

What is the difference between a dual sport and an ADV bike? It's a made up term, they are all in fact dual sports... Which have been softening. The first R80GS were "dual sports", why are they now "ADV tourers"? Because they are softer.

The most extreme of them remain the old ones that haven't been redesigned lately. Even the new KTM 690R Enduro pales compared to a 640 Adventure, but it is leaps and bounds better on the road.
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Old 03-25-2014, 02:11 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Kiba View Post

That is my pet peeve on CL ads. Well, that and "good conditions". And maybe "For sell".
"Barely used helment."
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Old 03-25-2014, 03:12 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Süsser Tod View Post
What is the difference between a dual sport and an ADV bike? It's a made up term, they are all in fact dual sports... Which have been softening.
But they're ALL made up terms! Dual sport is just a made up term, they're all motorcycles.

In my mind, I classify ADV bikes (GSA) more for touring, then dual sports (KTM690R), then street legal dirt bikes (KTM 540EXC) in order of increasing offroad worthiness and decreasing highway comfort.

But I digress. On the original subject, I think DS bikes are entirely capable of covering the ground of standard motorbikes (and then some) so they encompass both markets. Most small DS bikes have a neutral feel to them, like the standards (from handling to seating to engine performance). I just don't think there's enough market for standards to keep them around. Triumph and Moto-Guzzi still have the cafe-racer style bikes, BMW has the RnineT, but the first two are marketed as classic bikes and the latter is more of a high-performance/luxury item.
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Old 03-25-2014, 08:28 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by SkiFastBadly View Post
Irregardless, I could care less.
for all intensive purposes, Irregardless, is a non-standard word.
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Old 03-27-2014, 06:53 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by feathered View Post
You could argue something like a Versys, a Strom, a Tiger IS a standard. At least, it seems closer to a standard than to a dirt bike. What, it's got a longer travel suspension? Maybe a 19 inch front? Are dual sports the new standards... or are standards styled and marketed differently now?

Another way to look at it is there is way more variety in motorcycles now and something like 'standard' doesn't really cut it as a category description any more, so now we have cafe racers and super sports and dual sports and adventure-tourers and sport-tourers and motards and hypermotards and and and. Even 'dual sport' can be misleading if you're encompassing everything from a wr250 to a GSA. In almost any category, you can probably find a bike that fits your personal idea of 'standard'.
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Consider most ADV bikes to be a standard bike with long travel suspension. I call my strom an any-road bike.
I just bought a 2013 Wee (Glee?) and this was exactly the reason. It's a modern standard bike. The long travel suspension is just bonus comfort. I have a DR350 for off road use.
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Old 03-27-2014, 07:40 AM   #25
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I think the dual sports and ADV bikes are on the street and dirt sides of what a standard should be. To me a standard is a bike that can be easily modified to serve as anything from a touring bike to a larger dual sport. Too many of the ADV bikes have way too much body work and exposed mechanicals under the bike to be standards in my opinion, and the dual sports are mostly either too tall too low of an engine size to be decent long-distance bikes.

The TU250, Triumph bonneville/scrambler, CB1100, Bandit 600, etc. would be examples of more modern "standard" type bikes. Some of the naked bikes come close, but they need a frame under the engine or some kind of cheap underbody protection. When I hear of a standard bike, I picture an early to mid 80's Honda CB750/Nighthawk. You could turn that bike into a distance tourer easily and fairly cheaply, or you could go the other way and make it a dedicated dirt road/atv trail bike, also easily and fairly cheaply, and you don't have to be a master fabricator to do it with mostly homemade parts.


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Old 03-27-2014, 09:07 AM   #26
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Actually the terms have been somewhat defined by the AMA in their dual sport and adventure bike rides.

The dual sport ride takes place on actual enduro trails with extremely difficult terrain. Knowledgeable friends who have ridden the competitions say it would be quite painful to run an adventure bike on them and really if you want to have fun and enjoy it a plated enduro is the trick. It clearly rewards LTS and light weight. They said most "dual sport" riders would likely enjoy the adventure ride much more, with the dual sport ride appealing a lot more to former racers.

The adventure rides use some of those trails, but cut out the worst, making the ride enjoyable for the adventure bike riders. More realistic riding, even for the current dual sports.

I don't know for sure though since I've done neither.
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Old 03-27-2014, 09:27 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by riverflow View Post
But they're ALL made up terms! Dual sport is just a made up term, they're all motorcycles.

In my mind, I classify ADV bikes (GSA) more for touring, then dual sports (KTM690R), then street legal dirt bikes (KTM 540EXC) in order of increasing offroad worthiness and decreasing highway comfort.

But I digress. On the original subject, I think DS bikes are entirely capable of covering the ground of standard motorbikes (and then some) so they encompass both markets. Most small DS bikes have a neutral feel to them, like the standards (from handling to seating to engine performance). I just don't think there's enough market for standards to keep them around. Triumph and Moto-Guzzi still have the cafe-racer style bikes, BMW has the RnineT, but the first two are marketed as classic bikes and the latter is more of a high-performance/luxury item.
Kind of like automobiles and motorcycles since they're both just motor vehicles, huh?
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Old 03-27-2014, 09:29 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by jbhawley View Post
for all intensive purposes, Irregardless, is a non-standard word.

Kind of a double negative. Like contradicting the root word.

Now that is for all intensive purposes!
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Old 03-27-2014, 08:47 PM   #29
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for all intensive purposes, Irregardless, is a non-standard word.
With all due respect...
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