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Old 10-11-2005, 08:55 PM   #16
johnrayski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcostell
I'm sure the reg/rect items can be had elsewhere, but I'm not sure what good it would do you, unless you wanted to replace the stock BMW items with a single more modern alternative.


You could probably source the field windings and maybe also the rotor, but then you'd have to machine the rotor to fit the BMW shaft/seal. You would also have to manufacture the mounting frame for the windings to attach to the engine.

Overall I think the system is very reasonably priced (expect the price to go up in the not too distant future), when you consider the cost of components, machining and development.

The only area of potential weekness I can see with the system (like other higher wattage upgrades) is the additional weight of the rotor vs stock. I'll try to weigh all three (Stock/400/450) and post the info. But I think experience has shown that the weight increase hasn't been a problem for the front bearing.
The permanent magnet rotor of the EnDuralast System is actually -3.0 ounces lighter than the upgraded conventional Bosch-style coil rotor (or about -9% LESS)
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Old 10-12-2005, 08:10 AM   #17
bcostell
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Ha! John, you saved me getting out the kitchen scales!

I guess then if it's lighter, and if the 400w upgrade has no reliability issues assosciated with the heavier rotor, then your system should have no issues due to mass.

thx for clarifying.
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Old 10-12-2005, 04:48 PM   #18
Frank Warner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnrayski
The permanent magnet rotor of the EnDuralast System is actually -3.0 ounces lighter than the upgraded conventional Bosch-style coil rotor (or about -9% LESS)
Umm that does not answer the question as to the weight of the original rotor vs the EnDuralast rotor?

I hope you have sized your rectifier/regulator components better than the jap bike makers - they suffer reliablity problems with them - mainly SCR hot spot shorts if I understand correctly.
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Old 10-12-2005, 04:55 PM   #19
sharkey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Warner
I hope you have sized your rectifier/regulator components better than the jap bike makers - they suffer reliablity problems with them - mainly SCR hot spot shorts if I understand correctly.
G'day Frank,

Honda does seem to be doing their utmost to destroy their reputation for reliability by tucking their regulators in the most unlikely places ... the older bikes always used to have them out in the breeze, and never suffered this problem. VFR owners who've improved their heatsinks don't seem to have the problem any more, either.
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/S.../reg-rect.html

I reckon Honda are just jealous of BMW's fine work in mounting
semiconductors _inside_ the engine casing :-).

-----sharks

sharkey screwed with this post 10-12-2005 at 05:03 PM
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Old 10-12-2005, 05:34 PM   #20
Frank Warner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkey
I reckon Honda are just jealous of BMW's fine work in mounting
semiconductors _inside_ the engine casing :-).

Keeps their friends at HPN in business. They cut the al off the top of the motor and mount the electrics around the starter motor.

MotoGuzzie have the same alternator - they put their electrics out of the motor (including the diode board). And with the heavier guzzie flywheel don't have the rotor failure rate of airheads (the 'newer' ones with the light flywheel - about 1975 on I think?).
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Old 10-12-2005, 05:41 PM   #21
sharkey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Warner

Keeps their friends at HPN in business. They cut the al off the top of the motor and mount the electrics around the starter motor.
I love the way those engines look ... anyone know where I can find a big piccie of the HPN Sport?

Of course, there's not much point unless you're planning on
replacing the frame ...

-----sharks
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Old 10-12-2005, 06:06 PM   #22
Frank Warner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkey
Of course, there's not much point unless you're planning on
replacing the frame ...
Umm .. no frame replacement on the airheads - reinforcement yes.

Oilheads is a differnet matter.

You need to vist Paul Rooney - next time yer up Grafton way. Seeing things in the fleash is so much better. Was there two weeks ago - one R65GS (light weight and low), a R100 with oilhead rear end, and two others ... all being built up for customers. Maybe the next Horizons Unlimited meeting? Oct next year.
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Old 10-14-2005, 07:00 AM   #23
johnrayski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Warner
Umm that does not answer the question as to the weight of the original rotor vs the EnDuralast rotor?

I hope you have sized your rectifier/regulator components better than the jap bike makers - they suffer reliablity problems with them - mainly SCR hot spot shorts if I understand correctly.
The EnDuraLast permanent magnet rotor is about ~ -1 ounce lighter than the OE Bosch rotor I have weighed on my my scale. As previously stated it is about ~ -3 ounces lighter than high output aftermarket rotor. JR

The Stator / Rotor / SCR Rectifier are all sourced as a matched set from the Original Equipment Manufacturer ; mounting the Volt Reg / Rectifier close to the stator and in airstream should provide reliable voltage and long term life. JR
Thx for the opportunity to clarify !
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Old 10-14-2005, 05:52 PM   #24
Bigger Al
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkey
I love the way those engines look ... anyone know where I can find a big piccie of the HPN Sport?

Of course, there's not much point unless you're planning on
replacing the frame ...

-----sharks
Sharkey,
Try HPN's web site. There's a menu on the left with a photo gallery that includes some gorgeous high-res photos. Makes me feel all dizzy (in a good sort of way) every time I look at them.
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Old 10-14-2005, 11:33 PM   #25
sharkey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigger Al
Sharkey,
Try HPN's web site.
Oh. Yes, that'd be it. Geez, I'm a tool :-).

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Old 11-02-2005, 09:59 PM   #26
Donkey Hotey
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And now for the opposing view

Okay, not trying to stir the pot here, just trying to point out the differences between the Omega and EnduraLast kits. I for one prefer the design of the Omega and this is why:
  • The BMW and Omega systems only generate the current that they need. That's why they have the wound rotor and brushes. So does every car on the road. Motorcycles have suffered the woes of fixed output alternators for years. Only the most expensive and heavily taxed electrical systems get air cooled, variable output alternators (Gold Wings, BMWs).
  • The Omega has a greatly improved (automotive) diode block compared to the stock BMW system. The stock diode board and ground harness in the Airhead is a sorry joke and that's why the bike's charging system has earned such a poor reputation. I retrofitted a GM diode block to my 88 GS, rewired the battery feed. It solved all the problems with the stock system except the available current.
  • Yes, the BMW and Omega diode board is mounted inside the engine. So is the diode board in all of our cars (inside the alternator case and THEN bolted to the engine).
  • The EnduraLast system puts out 450 watts--ALL THE TIME. That's the problem with almost all motorcycle charging systems (not just the EnduraLast). Every watt that you don't burn running lights, grips or whatever, has to be burned by that voltage regulator. Turn off the headlight and the regulator has to burn 60 more watts. How? It shunts it to ground. That's why the heat sink is so large. For those who believe that the EnduraLast does away with diodes, it doesn't. They're in the regulator block and fail and overheat just like the stock one. In fact, they are ALWAYS passing full output so in reality, they will run hotter than the Omega or Thunderchild board.
  • In all fairness, the EnduraLast DOES do away with brush replacement. For heavy off road use, the extra reliability of doing away with the brushes, the brush holder and all the interconnects should add to vibration-related reliability.
  • On the other hand, the nature of a fixed output system (such as the EnduraLast) means that reliability will suffer in sustained high speed, warm weather riding. If you're not sucking all that extra wattage to run your lights, electric vests and such, the regulator can overheat and fail. My Goldwing used to nuke a regulator like clockwork, every 60K. It was always after a high speed, long mileage trip.
So I'm just trying to present both sides. I've now got Bcostell's old Omega system (got here tonight--thanks a million!). I guess for off road or long distance, low speed slogging, the EnduraLast is a more rugged design. For typical American road touring with occasional off road use, the Omega system is a more elegant solution that addresses the weaknesses in the stock BMW design (diode block and ground harness). YMMV.
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Old 11-02-2005, 11:15 PM   #27
sharkey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregCifu
[*]The EnduraLast system puts out 450 watts--ALL THE TIME. That's the problem with almost all motorcycle charging systems (not just the EnduraLast). Every watt that you don't burn running lights, grips or whatever, has to be burned by that voltage regulator. Turn off the headlight and the regulator has to burn 60 more watts. How? It shunts it to ground.
Sorry Greg, but that's just not true. It's a switching design. See the technical information on the website.

-----sharks
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Old 11-03-2005, 06:59 AM   #28
Donkey Hotey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkey
Sorry Greg, but that's just not true. It's a switching design. See the technical information on the website
I've just read their PDF on the subject. You are correct. I'm not if sure that's how the other manufacturers do it. I still believe its a less reliable design. The Thyristors are having to deal with switching the full output of the system rather than a 'normal' regulator simply controlling a field coil.

I was just trying to point out that like everything, there is no clear winner. It just depends on how you intend to use it as to which design comes out on top. The EnduraLast has its place.

Forums like this tend to exagerate claims and this was starting to look like "hey, everybody should dump their alternators--even if they're Omegas and go get this new system...it's how BMW should have done it in the first place."

Unfortunately, every failure that I've had of this 'type' of system has been regulator AND stator. My guess is the electronics fail first (to ground) which overheats the stator and 'blam' they're both toast. My 86 Goldwing (500 watts) blew the charging system every 60K, like clockwork (three of them). After number one, I moved the regulator out to fresh air. It did nothing for the longevity. My friend's 95 Honda Shadow did exactly the same thing (50K).

Thanks for keeping me honest though
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Old 11-03-2005, 08:57 AM   #29
bcostell
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Hi Greg, glad to see the Omega arrived. To clarify from a personal perspective .... I think both are great systems, but my needs are for three identical systems, minimum spare parts and maximujm reliability on a long trek. I wouldn't encourage anyone to swap under more normal circumstances.

Reliability can only be measured over time, but as the components are the same electrically as fitted to Ducati's I'm assuming the wrinkles have been ironed out. I work on the basis of less parts means less points of potential failure.

I will be taking one spare reg/rect unit on my trek (for three bikes) and I'm sure that if I needed a second faster than I could get a replacement sent I could most likely jury-rig something up locally (note to self...identify South American bikes with this type of set-up).

My understanding re. the output is that is engine speed dependant, and it's about 200watts at about 1500rpm raising up to 450W at 6k rpm (working from memory).

After all, what we all need is more power low down, 400w vs 450w is academic for me.
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Old 11-03-2005, 11:47 AM   #30
sharkey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcostell
After all, what we all need is more power low down, 400w vs 450w is academic for me.
Yeah, I'm unlikely to ever use anything like that power no matter how silly I go with lights. The main thing is 'power at 2000rpm'.

I've been riding Japanese bikes with permanent-magnet electrics for quite a few years now, and never had any problems. There are some troublesome models, though. I reckon at a pinch you could use two of the three phases of a UJM rec/reg with the EnDuraLast stator, if you had to.

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