Can Garmin Mapsource Do what I want?

Hotspice · 09-16-2005, 08:02 PM

Ok, I've searched and searched and for the life of me can't find how the h#$$ to do this with my mapsource software ( v6.8 ).

Basically I've got 11 waypoints and I'm trying to plan a route. I'm starting and ending at my house and I'm trying to find the best, most efficient route to all the waypoints.

When I try to create a new route by adding the waypoints it just tosses them in alphabetical order. I can of course manually move them up or down in the route but I'd like to software to figure out what the best way to hit all of them is.

Is that possible with Mapsource or am I trying to get it to do something it can't? If it can't do it, is there some software that does that I can use on my 276c??

Tanks much,
Directionally challenged..

tbirdsp · 09-16-2005, 08:36 PM

Just use the route tool and click your waypoints?

Hotspice · 09-16-2005, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbirdsp

Just use the route tool and click your waypoints?

Yep, that's what I do now. Some of the towns are real close together and I wanted to see if I should have zigged when I think I should zagged..

Basically I'm going for efficiency on this one.. If I can shave 40 miles off the route I'll save some gas and time and be a happier camper..

road2blue · 09-16-2005, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beemerboy

Basically I'm going for efficiency on this one.. If I can shave 40 miles off the route I'll save some gas and time and be a happier camper..

Why would you want to shorten a route...isn;t this about riding a motorcycle?

I liked what Don Douglass said....2 250 mile days are better than 1 4oo mile day.

It's all about the ride!

Hotspice · 09-16-2005, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADVENTUREBIKER11

Why would you want to shorten a route...isn;t this about riding a motorcycle?

I liked what Don Douglass said....2 250 mile days are better than 1 4oo mile day.

It's all about the ride!

Eggggggggggzactly.. The quicker I get done with my must do running around I can start my want to do riding around..

markjenn · 09-17-2005, 01:00 AM

You're asking about one of the classic problems in computer science called the traveling salesman problem or TSP. The TSP asks what's the shortest distance that visits a number of points.

You can prove that the TSP cannot be solved efficiently - that is, the only way to definitively find the shortest path is by brute force, computing every possible route and choosing the shortest one. For even fairly simple routes, this can become computationally infeasible as the number of possible routes grows to huge numbers with even small numbers of points. There are methods to approximate the TSP solution, but there is no guarantee that it is THE best route.

Enough theory. As far as I know, none of the commercially available route mapping products (including MapSource) solve the TSP problem, probably because it is so computationally intractable. They'll generally do optimal routing between pairs of points for which efficient algorithms are available (e.g., Dikjstra's algorithm), but they won't take a given set of points and order them to produce the optimal overall route. You have to trail-error guess at the order to put the points in and let it go from there.

Cheers,

- Mark

oio · 09-17-2005, 03:47 PM

Yup, Mark is right. It's one of the classic problems of Operations Research.

Actually, a routing guy with lots of experience can do pretty well finding a good route that gets close to minimizing distance / time traveled.

There is a lot of academic literature on the subject, if you are so inclined. If it was me I wouldn't waste my time.

markjenn · 09-17-2005, 05:27 PM

I wonder what delivery services like FedEx and UPS use.

- Mark

Karl_L · 09-17-2005, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markjenn

As far as I know, none of the commercially available route mapping products (including MapSource) solve the TSP problem....

Microsoft Streets & Trips does take a stab at it.

oio · 09-17-2005, 08:32 PM

OK, for those AdvRiders who have an insatiable curiosity...

TSP Home Page

All you wanted to know about the Traveling Salesman Problem.

markjenn · 09-17-2005, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl_L

Microsoft Streets & Trips does take a stab at it.

Good catch. It sequences waypoints into the route on the fly as you add waypoints, and it appears "Optimize Stops" will reshuffle the entire waypoint stack to try and find the shortest route. I'd bet it is an approximation to the shortest route, but probably a very good one for anything but degenerate cases.

I love S&T. It is so much better than MapSource. Unfortunately, there is no easy way to build routes in S&T that can be easily transferred to the GPS and use the Garmin map data.

- Mark

BurnieM · 09-18-2005, 03:09 AM

Both the Garmi SP2610 and GPSmap 276C will do this.

Create a route with start pinots and enmd points, add via points, sort by something (I do not have the unit in front of me)

Karl_L · 09-18-2005, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markjenn

Good catch. It sequences waypoints into the route on the fly as you add waypoints, and it appears "Optimize Stops" will reshuffle the entire waypoint stack to try and find the shortest route. I'd bet it is an approximation to the shortest route, but probably a very good one for anything but degenerate cases.

I love S&T. It is so much better than MapSource. Unfortunately, there is no easy way to build routes in S&T that can be easily transferred to the GPS and use the Garmin map data.

- Mark

That feature of optimizing stops as you add waypoints can be a little annoying, I wish it wouldn't do that. But mostly I like S&T too, it is less cumbersome than MapSource, especially it's search function. In fact when searching for addresses I usually use S&T to find the address then pan & zoom in Mapsource to add a waypoint. I do wish that S&T could output directly to the GPS or at least export pushpin and route data to GPX format.

markjenn · 09-18-2005, 11:33 AM

The thing I really like to do with S&T is simply to point to a spot on the map, right-click, and say "Route >> Add as Stop". This is by far the most intuitive way to taking a route and adding wayponits to force it to a desired set of roads.

With MapSource to do the same, you either have to define the waypoint and manually add it via Route Properties (cumbersome), or rubber-band drag the route to the new waypoint with one of the most counter-intuitive UI's I've ever seen.

- Mark

Apogee · 09-18-2005, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markjenn

...
You can prove that the TSP cannot be solved efficiently - that is, the only way to definitively find the shortest path is by brute force, computing every possible route and choosing the shortest one.
...

P not equal to NP?

Give ya $50 bucks for that proof.

09-16-2005, 08:02 PM	#1
Hotspice ^OP Satellites not acquired Joined: May 2004 Location: Snow-Bound Oddometer: 5,423	Can Garmin Mapsource Do what I want? Ok, I've searched and searched and for the life of me can't find how the h#$$ to do this with my mapsource software ( v6.8 ). Basically I've got 11 waypoints and I'm trying to plan a route. I'm starting and ending at my house and I'm trying to find the best, most efficient route to all the waypoints. When I try to create a new route by adding the waypoints it just tosses them in alphabetical order. I can of course manually move them up or down in the route but I'd like to software to figure out what the best way to hit all of them is. Is that possible with Mapsource or am I trying to get it to do something it can't? If it can't do it, is there some software that does that I can use on my 276c?? Tanks much, Directionally challenged.. __________________ Cyclenutz.com motorcycle accessories Get a SmugMug account and use coupon code DwHE0pDRjpJfw to save yourself $5.

09-16-2005, 08:36 PM	#2
tbirdsp REMF Joined: Mar 2002 Location: Nebraska Oddometer: 8,546	Just use the route tool and click your waypoints? __________________ Mike S. '09 Bonneville Black AMA MSTA STOC http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/...orcycleriders/

09-17-2005, 03:47 PM	#7
oio Gnarly Adventurer Joined: Oct 2003 Location: Colorado Springs and Leadville, CO Oddometer: 495	Yup, Mark is right. It's one of the classic problems of Operations Research. Actually, a routing guy with lots of experience can do pretty well finding a good route that gets close to minimizing distance / time traveled. There is a lot of academic literature on the subject, if you are so inclined. If it was me I wouldn't waste my time. __________________ BMW F650GS, Triumph Tiger 800

09-17-2005, 08:32 PM	#10
oio Gnarly Adventurer Joined: Oct 2003 Location: Colorado Springs and Leadville, CO Oddometer: 495	OK, for those AdvRiders who have an insatiable curiosity... TSP Home Page All you wanted to know about the Traveling Salesman Problem. __________________ BMW F650GS, Triumph Tiger 800

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09-17-2005, 01:00 AM	#6
markjenn Beastly Adventurer Joined: Nov 2003 Location: Swellvue, WA Oddometer: 9,700	You're asking about one of the classic problems in computer science called the traveling salesman problem or TSP. The TSP asks what's the shortest distance that visits a number of points. You can prove that the TSP cannot be solved efficiently - that is, the only way to definitively find the shortest path is by brute force, computing every possible route and choosing the shortest one. For even fairly simple routes, this can become computationally infeasible as the number of possible routes grows to huge numbers with even small numbers of points. There are methods to approximate the TSP solution, but there is no guarantee that it is THE best route. Enough theory. As far as I know, none of the commercially available route mapping products (including MapSource) solve the TSP problem, probably because it is so computationally intractable. They'll generally do optimal routing between pairs of points for which efficient algorithms are available (e.g., Dikjstra's algorithm), but they won't take a given set of points and order them to produce the optimal overall route. You have to trail-error guess at the order to put the points in and let it go from there. Cheers, - Mark

09-17-2005, 05:27 PM	#8
markjenn Beastly Adventurer Joined: Nov 2003 Location: Swellvue, WA Oddometer: 9,700	I wonder what delivery services like FedEx and UPS use. - Mark

09-18-2005, 03:09 AM	#12
BurnieM Nipple boy Joined: Sep 2003 Location: Sydney, Australia Oddometer: 4,101	Both the Garmi SP2610 and GPSmap 276C will do this. Create a route with start pinots and enmd points, add via points, sort by something (I do not have the unit in front of me)

09-18-2005, 11:33 AM	#14
markjenn Beastly Adventurer Joined: Nov 2003 Location: Swellvue, WA Oddometer: 9,700	The thing I really like to do with S&T is simply to point to a spot on the map, right-click, and say "Route >> Add as Stop". This is by far the most intuitive way to taking a route and adding wayponits to force it to a desired set of roads. With MapSource to do the same, you either have to define the waypoint and manually add it via Route Properties (cumbersome), or rubber-band drag the route to the new waypoint with one of the most counter-intuitive UI's I've ever seen. - Mark