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Old 04-22-2014, 06:39 PM   #16
Head2Wind
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It requires a special tool to compress the valve springs to then release the keepers/spring retainers.... Not a overly expensive tool.

1. Engine has to come out
2. Cylinders have to come off with the heads
3. Clean environment is very important!
4. Unless you absolutely need 'the experience of rebuilding my own machine' I suggest that you pull the engine and take/ship it to someone who has the tools and experience....

This engine is not overly complex or extremely difficult to work on, however it does have its 'secrets'. Of all of them that I have worked on, only 3 of them have I done required head/valve work on. Most of the major work has been as a result of failed head gaskets. I would also not 'lap' the valves on this engine _IF_ installing new valves into correctly cut seats. A modern 5-7 angle and/or blended bowl work do not require (nor do many high end engine builders recommend it either) a 'lap' in of the valve/seat.
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Old 04-22-2014, 07:17 PM   #17
COXR650L
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Originally Posted by Jdeks View Post
Thanks heaps everyone

I should first clarify - it's 100 000 km, so only about 60 000 miles.


oooo.....Well thats a little different. Damn metric system At 60k I would guess cleaning up the valves and rings is all you'll need to do.


It it were me I would still crack the cases and check the bottom nend if the engine is out of the bike and you have the top end torn apart. It will cost about $75 more for a complete KTM gasket kit and 2 hours of your time. I know people SWEAR these engines go forever and are willing to throw caution to the wind and not even verify the condition of critical components when you have the perfect opportunity .

60k is not a new engine (especially given the symptoms your having) and I still say you've gone this far just take a look for peace of mind, chances are it will be fine but are you willing to risk that for so little upfront effort and money? While you are in there you can update the oil rail ($.99 part) do the shift fork bushings and the shift drum if so inclined. Hell if you have the money just spend 300 or so and replace the main bearings and have a completely fresh engine that will be good for another 60+k without worry.

Edit: I maybe I missed it but if you said you don't have a good place to work on it or many tools...just re ring it, new valve stem seals and ride it!
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Old 04-22-2014, 09:58 PM   #18
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Glad to see you rode the new and decided to rebuild the old. My thoughts are if you do any engine work, do it all. I did a valve only job on a high mileage car engine once. With the enhance sealing in the head, I really found out how bad the pistons, rings and cylinders were. What ever I gained in the heads was lost as blow-by in the cylinders.

I also agree with the inmate who recommended you remove the engine and take it to a good rebuild area. ds
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Old 04-22-2014, 10:18 PM   #19
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I've seen a few LC8's of that year and mileage, break a ring. It starts blowing oil and after a while running poor on one cylinder. Run it too long and you need the cylinder re-coated to match a new piston. About $150 over here and $500 for a piston kit.

Do not lap the valves. You'll just make them worse. Cut the seats, grind the valves or replace.

Comments on wear. KTM's have very tough valve guides. They are rarely out of spec. This engine has plan bearings in the crank rods and mains. If you kept oil in it, you probably have very little wear at 60k miles.

Pull the engine and carry it into your house. It's light at 125 lbs.

CLEAN, CLEAN, CLEAN. Engines usually get the most dirt in them when opened up.
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Old 04-22-2014, 11:03 PM   #20
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Are you sure the valve seats are passing oil? My 04 with 15k was blowing a oil whilst in neutral. After some research on here and asking questions it turned out to be the balance shaft seal.

Have you checked the carb buckets for oil?

I order a new seal and the one way valve with goes on to the breather pipe. cost me less than £30 - no more blue smoke.
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Old 04-23-2014, 09:00 AM   #21
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My bike has 46k-ish miles. It's been on the road for about 1k miles now since I had the engine apart and the barrels off to fix the leaking base gasket (Pyndon Syndrome). You don't NEED to remove the motor from the frame, but you do at least need to rotate it forward to get the rear cylinder vertical enough to remove the head and jug.

While it was apart, I replaced the valve seals, did a light lap of the original valves and reassembled. To remove the valves from the head (like to replace the seals....), a standard valve spring compressor tool won't work by itself. The wells that the valve springs sit in are too deep. I used some aluminum tubing and sockets as spacers to get it to work, but it was fiddly trying to get the keepers in-and-out. The top rings of my motor were at the limit of wear (gap too big). All the other rings (as well as piston-to-cylinder clearance) were well within tolerance.

This can be a good time to replace the oil pressure relief assembly and cam chain tensioner pistons. Both of these have updated part numbers and can contribute to low oil pressure at idle with a hot engine. Also, replace the seal on the balancer shaft on the left side while you have that cover off.

Take your time, read the manual. Label everything and take lots of pictures. The valves need to be returned to their original position in it's original head, so label them carefully as well. Be very careful when it comes to removing and installed the piston pin keepers. Rags stuffed into the crankcase openings can save you a ton of extra work for a miniscule part....
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Old 04-23-2014, 09:59 AM   #22
Sumi
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Don't hone the cylinders. They're nicasil coated and you'll only get it worse - and I don't think they need honing anyway.
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Old 04-23-2014, 04:56 PM   #23
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Everyone, thanks for the input. Duly noted about cleanliness. Thanks to the generosity of one of the inmates here, I may well have a clean shed to use now

Quote:
Originally Posted by stupot
Are you sure the valve seats are passing oil? My 04 with 15k was blowing a oil whilst in neutral. After some research on here and asking questions it turned out to be the balance shaft seal.

Have you checked the carb buckets for oil?

I order a new seal and the one way valve with goes on to the breather pipe. cost me less than £30 - no more blue smoke.
Valid theory, but not in my case. I have no airbox and my case breather is routed elsewhere from the intakes. Balance shaft seal is relatively new anyway. Thanks though !
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Old 04-24-2014, 12:32 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Jdeks View Post
Everyone, thanks for the input. Duly noted about cleanliness. Thanks to the generosity of one of the inmates here, I may well have a clean shed to use now



Valid theory, but not in my case. I have no airbox and my case breather is routed elsewhere from the intakes. Balance shaft seal is relatively new anyway. Thanks though !
Roger that
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Old 05-06-2014, 04:06 PM   #25
Young-Gun
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Progress report?

Hey mate, how's the progress on this.. if any?
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Old 05-06-2014, 10:38 PM   #26
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I've been a track rat for the bulk of my life (I'm over 50) and I am acquainted with some of the top engine builders in the country. Not a single one laps valves, its pretty much been proven that lapping does not do much. its the sharp surface and proper angles that make a valve seal, cutting or grinding are the only legit options. First thing any good head builder does is a 5 or 6 cut valve job, does more for less money than any other head mod.

Porsche's have Nicasil cylinders, its not unusual to wear out 4 sets of rings and 2 sets pistons before the jugs need attention.

I never tear a decently used head off without new valve springs. On race engines twice a season..

Old school tractor tip...
One way to get valve springs off without pulling a head is, get the engine on the compression stoke bring the pison up 50% or so, use some light dacron or nylon line,1/8" feed it into the cylinder through the spark plug hole (Leave some hanging out... ;) ), gently rotate the motor forward to compress the rope into the head. it will hold up the valves while you R&R the springs and seals. rotate back a few degrees and pull the line back out.

If you re-ring or change cam followers/Lifters/Buckets don t use regular synthetic, use something similar to Joe Gibbs break'in oil for a thousand or so miles. Its very high in Zinc-sulfide and will help properly aneal the high pressure wear surfaces( like Cam lobes), regular/synthetic oil is too slick and has almost no zinc due to the clean emissions oil tech in use now. (Comp cams and others have reference material about this issue.. ) Some of the new MC oils may have substitutes but I've seen the damage in race engines with brand new cams and lifters die in a couple track sessions..

Hope it helps and pleas ignore any beer induced spelling mistakes.. :)
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Old 05-07-2014, 07:32 PM   #27
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Hey mate, how's the progress on this.. if any?

I have access to an awesome and clean garage, thanks to a local inmate who saw the thread. I am in his debt.

I'm going to drop and pull the heads and inspect them soon.

If bores, valves and seats look good, I'm going to replace the stem seals, cam chains and sliders, and put it back together. I might do rings and piston, but honestly compression and leakage has been checked multiple times and come back excellent...in the absence of a need to replacement, I want to see how long these motors can last.

If there looks to be a need for more work, I have a deal lined up for basically a whole brand new set of heads and cylinders at a good price. I'll just swap them in. Possibly split the case while im there and replace the main bearings.

There will be many many pics.
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Old 05-07-2014, 07:46 PM   #28
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Old school tractor tip...
One way to get valve springs off without pulling a head is, get the engine on the compression stoke bring the pison up 50% or so, use some light dacron or nylon line,1/8" feed it into the cylinder through the spark plug hole (Leave some hanging out... ;) ), gently rotate the motor forward to compress the rope into the head. it will hold up the valves while you R&R the springs and seals. rotate back a few degrees and pull the line back out.
This is very interesting.....

But an LC8 is a long stretch from a tractor....can anyone who's been inside comment on if this method would work?

Thanks for the tips in any case
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Old 05-08-2014, 05:35 AM   #29
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Don't know why it wouldn't, as long as you can get the springs compressed to remove the retainers.
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Old 05-08-2014, 06:36 AM   #30
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Don't know why it wouldn't, as long as you can get the springs compressed to remove the retainers.
Bingo.....
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