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Old 07-17-2014, 06:39 PM   #781
JefRo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilmar13 View Post
Here is a view of my rear cyl intake valves showing the heavy deposits:



It may be hard to see but there is a LOT of gunk on the top of the valves, and perhaps this is normal because of the CCV exiting above the rear TB. It would be nice if fellow inmates can let me know if your bike's intake valves look the same next time you have a peek inside the airbox. My bike has just over 7k miles.
How did you open the butterfly valves? When I tried to open mine they were closed solid and so I turned on the ignition and was able to open them about 15 degrees but not enough to do a visual inspection as you have done. I assume that the "fly by wire" throttle control will not allow the butterfly valves to open from an external mechanical force.

It was interesting, in my case, that the rear butterfly was much more coated with gunk than the front butterfly and there was additional evidence of this by the filter media I had installed on the tops of the trumpets. Definitely there was not equal draw of air through both trumpets.

I completely concur with your assessment of dirty air completely bypassing the top of the filter at the bridge. The rubber seal on my bridge does not have a constant depth across the bridge area and would certainly not seal with the stock set-up because enough pressure cannot be applied by the two adjacent air box perimeter screws. The Uni is the only way a seal in this area can be accomplished. This is definitely one clear example of either poor design or very high production tolerance, both of which should be addressed by KTM.
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Old 07-17-2014, 07:11 PM   #782
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Originally Posted by TDsurf View Post
If you have a 2013 or 2014, and you ride in dirt or dusty conditions you have a problem. The first thing I asked my dealer about was the airbox, and weather it was fixed on the 2014's. Yes it's a new part number, but the airbox is still flawed. I have not read one post from an inmate with an 1190 that rode in dirt with a stock air filter that did not have dirt in the airbox.
It's just sad that such a well respected company is trying to ignore this problem.
I guess it's all a matter of money, If they pretend that there is no problem for a year there off the hook.

I got my 2014 1190r the first week in May. After reading this thread I ordered the unifilter just in case. I checked the box at 1k and it was like new clean, so I left the stock filter in place.

At 2k, with a small amount of dirt riding, I checked it again. There was a small amount of dust, so I installed just the uni gasket and the stock paper filter with some grease along the bottom. I am trying to be methodical about it.

I opened the box today at 4.5k, it was clean! There were many miles of dusty dirt roads. I'm not sure why my experience is different from those in this thread? I'll keep a close eye on the filter, but for now I'm happy.


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Old 07-17-2014, 07:47 PM   #783
wilmar13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JefRo View Post
How did you open the butterfly valves? When I tried to open mine they were closed solid and so I turned on the ignition and was able to open them about 15 degrees but not enough to do a visual inspection as you have done. I assume that the "fly by wire" throttle control will not allow the butterfly valves to open from an external mechanical force.
Very Carefully!

With ignition off, I wasn't sure which way they opened so I pushed gently with my finger on one side and felt locked, then the other and it opened without any force (I wasn't sure if the servo would lock them or not so I didn't push very hard). Only resistance encountered was return spring force. I would not attempt to do this with ignition on at all. Probably even to be safe you should disconnect ground, but as long as they return to same position they were in the servo should not be confused when you start bike. At least I hope not!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JefRo View Post
It was interesting, in my case, that the rear butterfly was much more coated with gunk than the front butterfly and there was additional evidence of this by the filter media I had installed on the tops of the trumpets. Definitely there was not equal draw of air through both trumpets.
I would not conclude air flow path based on difference in gunk between the throttle bodies. The rear will always be dirtier because the crank case vent exits right above it. The hose in the rear valve cover is to relieve pressure that slips by the rings and otherwise, then there is an oil separator inside the lid that will collect most of the atomized oil coming out the vent and drain back into the engine, and the hydrocarbons (dirty fumes) get burned again. The dirty fumes and oil that slips by is what makes the rear TB gunky'r
Quote:
Originally Posted by JefRo View Post
I completely concur with your assessment of dirty air completely bypassing the top of the filter at the bridge. The rubber seal on my bridge does not have a constant depth across the bridge area and would certainly not seal with the stock set-up because enough pressure cannot be applied by the two adjacent air box perimeter screws. The Uni is the only way a seal in this area can be accomplished. This is definitely one clear example of either poor design or very high production tolerance, both of which should be addressed by KTM.
Yes this is a clearly a design flaw. Really the only way to catch it is if you did enough testing to notice a problem. Maybe they didn't do much testing. Maybe it was designed by someone that has no practical experience in real world production tolerances and application outside the CAD model. I remember reading (don't know if it is true) that there were only two 1190r's that were built and ridden for all the marketing literature, and maybe they had preproduction boxes because the production tooling wasn't ready or something. I was so focused on how well the filter itself sealed, and the gap I could see on the outside, I didn't think that area above the filter (inside the box) would be an issue, maybe KTM did the same. Who knows. Hindsight is 20/20 and all that. Surely they are working on a more robust design with more gasket material or whatever.
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Old 07-17-2014, 07:50 PM   #784
wilmar13
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Originally Posted by MunK View Post
I'm not sure why my experience is different from those in this thread? I'll keep a close eye on the filter, but for now I'm happy.


MunK
It isn't any different than mine... or rather it would have been had I sealed the bridge.

My stock paper filter fits just fine.
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Old 07-17-2014, 10:36 PM   #785
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[QUOTE=wilmar13;24640869]Very Carefully!

With ignition off, I wasn't sure which way they opened so I pushed gently with my finger on one side and felt locked, then the other and it opened without any force (I wasn't sure if the servo would lock them or not so I didn't push very hard). Only resistance encountered was return spring force. I would not attempt to do this with ignition on at all. Probably even to be safe you should disconnect ground, but as long as they return to same position they were in the servo should not be confused when you start bike. At least I hope not!

I will try opening the butterfly valves by hand next time the air box is opened up. The valves only opened the small amount when I turned the throttle with the key on. Mine seemed to have greater closing force than return springs and I did not want to force them open. Curious what I will see if I can open them up.

Also curious about the results of the leak down test on your bike.
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Old 07-17-2014, 10:47 PM   #786
wilmar13
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Originally Posted by JefRo View Post
Also curious about the results of the leak down test on your bike.
Me Too! Hopefully tomorrow.
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Old 07-19-2014, 11:07 AM   #787
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Well FWIW, turns out the engine can handle a bit of dust. My leak-down test came back at 1%.

I guess I was just being paranoid after all. Whew!
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Old 07-19-2014, 12:59 PM   #788
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Originally Posted by wilmar13 View Post
Well FWIW, turns out the engine can handle a bit of dust. My leak-down test came back at 1%.

I guess I was just being paranoid after all. Whew!
Good news
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Old 07-19-2014, 05:19 PM   #789
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1%? "Normall" on a broken in engine is around 3-8, fresh rebuilds are 10ish (the rings need to set-in). You can have an engine around 15% that runs great. What was the percentage per cylinder? It's not a total engine score, there should be two readings, one per cylinder.

I've been a little skeptical of these reading people have been posting, anyone want to post a copy of their work order? I'm just worried.
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Old 07-19-2014, 05:34 PM   #790
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1%? "Normall" on a broken in engine is around 3-8, fresh rebuilds are 10ish (the rings need to set-in). You can have an engine around 15% that runs great. What was the percentage per cylinder? It's not a total engine score, there should be two readings, one per cylinder.
Both cylinders were 1%. I too was a bit incredulous that it could be that good, but I did a quick google and it is possible.

I did break it in properly (not per manual) by using motorex mineral oil (the break in oil loaded at factory) again at first oil change 600miles and ran it until 2k miles before going full synthetic.
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Old 07-19-2014, 10:49 PM   #791
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Great news. Mine came back at 2 on the front and 3 on the back cylinder.
Now, what was causing all your symptoms?
Have you found anything to account for blowing smoke and trouble starting?
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Old 07-19-2014, 11:38 PM   #792
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When my engine was dusted and wouldn't start, it was wear on the valves that caused a loss of compression. All happened very quickly and with no apparent performance loss.
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Old 07-20-2014, 02:38 AM   #793
wilmar13
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Now, what was causing all your symptoms?
Have you found anything to account for blowing smoke and trouble starting?
For now I am going to chalk it up to faulty inductive reasoning supported by some reasonable premises and fueled with paranoia from this thread.

I stopped riding my bike shortly after I saw the oil leaking out of the breather (I had about 250 miles to get back to truck). It had not used any oil in 5500 miles, and most likely damage due to dust inhalation would be gradual rather than sudden. I didn't notice any differences in starting until I saw the oil leaking out of the breather. My bike always started, it just seemed to be harder to start. That could have been imagined, so for now I am going to forget it as symptom.

I never saw it blowing smoke, and my buddy told me it was doing it when cold. Most likely my initial dismissal as no big deal, was the correct one. It was after the oil leak and (real or imagined) starting hesitation that I added that back in to fuel my paranoia. I was cognizant that I probably had nothing to worry about, and would not do so unless there was dust in my airbox, and of course I imagined the worst when I opened my sealed lid and saw all that dirt on the wrong side of the filter. The leak test was the determinant of a problem or not, and it turns out there isn't one, at least with the health of my engine.

As far as the leaking oil from breather, it is probably that the hose or elbow fitting just began leaking the oil that drains back down normally. This will be confirmed going forward.

Obviously I did have dust by pass the filter with the lid sealed, but that can be solved. I was more worried about damage done, but it turns out there is none. It is probably a good thing I caught it when I did, but the fine particles that did get past are probably not as hard on the internals as one would imagine, or else I wouldn't have a near perfectly tight engine right now. The owners that had trashed engines probably had bigger particles getting in, through actual gaps (poor filter fitment and lid sealing). If you entertain the possibility that what was inside was just accumulated very fine dust that passed through the paper media then it makes a bit more sense, and really looking at the photos all I can say for sure is that some dirt went past the bridge where it didn't totally seal. My assertion that it ALL went over was based on the assumption that it would get caught in the paper, but after some research into paper filters I think this was a bad assumption too.

The engine oil still looks decent by eye, but as it has 5500 mile and a track day on it combined with however much dirt it ate, I'm going to go ahead and change it and send a sample out for analysis.

Only question in my mind right now, is the junk all over the intake valves from the crankcase breather on rear cylinder seems excessive for the mileage but until someone else confirms that is abnormal, I will just assume it isn't.
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Old 07-20-2014, 08:39 AM   #794
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From experience with the carbed 950 and FI 990, I can assure you that the discoloration on the rear intakes is normal with the stock air box/breather routing. I haven't seen an 1190 airbox in person. But it appears to be the same design used by KTM for 10 years or more...

FWIW
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Old 07-20-2014, 06:36 PM   #795
antirich5
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Hopefully will be picking up a 14 Adventure soon. Needless to say, the airbox issue was of some concern.

Spoke to Rottweiler about some engine stuff, and they did a dyno run that showed the unifilter reduced the top end HP by 7hp, and 12HP total with the intake sock. I'm not too concerned about loosing power, for the beast has enough for the task, but I didn't want to see a 15+% drop in fuel economy. Not to mention, less air equals unbalanced fueling/mapping.

I think I'll just wrap the edge of the lid and airbox with metal HAVC tape (thin metal coated tape used for duct work). Should do the job, while still retaining the bike's performance.

And yea, I've opened up several airboxes over the years; nothing out of the ordinary with the photos above.
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