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Old 05-19-2014, 07:50 PM   #1
SCflyer OP
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1190 coolant type ?

I was doing the general level checks and noticed the coolant level wasn't visible in the site area on the right side. The level is about 1 3/4 inches below the MIN mark. I tookt the side panel off and there is coolant in the overflow so by this, the book says just top it up.

The manual advises Motorex 5M.0 for ready mixed fluid which would be preferred. The fluid in the tank is red and when looking up for purchase the 5M.0 is in Blue on the bottle and they also have a 3M.0 that is printed in Red. Sometimes this correlates, sometimes not. Just wondering if anyone has added any of the 5 and is it blue or red. Don't want to drive 40min or longer to get some and it be the wrong stuff.

I haven't noticed any obvious leaks, clamps are tight and the temp level stays about 4bars high so what's in there seems to work but trying to go by the recommendations.

Thanks
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Old 05-20-2014, 01:37 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by SCflyer View Post
I was doing the general level checks and noticed the coolant level wasn't visible in the site area on the right side. The level is about 1 3/4 inches below the MIN mark. I tookt the side panel off and there is coolant in the overflow so by this, the book says just top it up.

The manual advises Motorex 5M.0 for ready mixed fluid which would be preferred. The fluid in the tank is red and when looking up for purchase the 5M.0 is in Blue on the bottle and they also have a 3M.0 that is printed in Red. Sometimes this correlates, sometimes not. Just wondering if anyone has added any of the 5 and is it blue or red. Don't want to drive 40min or longer to get some and it be the wrong stuff.

I haven't noticed any obvious leaks, clamps are tight and the temp level stays about 4bars high so what's in there seems to work but trying to go by the recommendations.

Thanks
You can top it up up to 0.5 l with distilled water to get by until you next drain the system and replace the coolant. Don't mix different coolants. Red color is not the Motorex M5 as you say, but we won't know what your KTM importer put in unless you ask them. Being red, it's probably Propylene Glycol based. They probably invalidated the warranty

If the red stuff is propylene glycol, then it is more corrosive, breaks down at a lower temperature, and is less efficient as a coolant than ethylene glycol.

Mine was filled with Motorex M5 by KTM Greece. It's blue Ethylene Glycol 50% 50%. Sticking with that.
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Old 05-20-2014, 06:53 AM   #3
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Thanks. If all the manuals say one thing, why put another type in? Cheaper to use for them I'm guessing for the mass production. Dealer advised the same with the water but checking with KTM techs.





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Originally Posted by RobZorba View Post
You can top it up up to 0.5 l with distilled water to get by until you next drain the system and replace the coolant. Don't mix different coolants. Red color is not the Motorex M5 as you say, but we won't know what your KTM importer put in unless you ask them. Being red, it's probably Propylene Glycol based. They probably invalidated the warranty

If the red stuff is propylene glycol, then it is more corrosive, breaks down at a lower temperature, and is less efficient as a coolant than ethylene glycol.

Mine was filled with Motorex M5 by KTM Greece. It's blue Ethylene Glycol 50% 50%. Sticking with that.
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Old 05-20-2014, 09:05 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by SCflyer View Post
Thanks. If all the manuals say one thing, why put another type in?
That's a very good question ... only the importer / distributor can answer. If the red stuff is propylene glycol, with organic acid inhibitor (OAT), then it's a mistake. The KTM owner manual specification calls for ethylene glycol with inorganic acid inhibitor (IAT) in a 50% 50% solution with distilled water.

If you want other questions answered about coolant solutions, there's a good Q&A here:

http://foryourbusiness.eco-freez.com...118&Itemid=134
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Old 05-21-2014, 08:30 AM   #5
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I have the same issue with my 1190 - red coolant in the system and I have purchased The recommended M5 which is blue.
I spoke to KTM UK who said the red coolant is Motorex M3, and the M5 is OK to use with the M3.
I also spoke to a couple of dealers who said the same. I would still prefer to use the same stuff though, but I can't seem to get M3 locally, so it looks like I shall have to use M5.
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Old 05-21-2014, 02:29 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Redherring View Post
I have the same issue with my 1190 - red coolant in the system and I have purchased The recommended M5 which is blue.
I spoke to KTM UK who said the red coolant is Motorex M3, and the M5 is OK to use with the M3. I also spoke to a couple of dealers who said the same. I would still prefer to use the same stuff though, but I can't seem to get M3 locally, so it looks like I shall have to use M5.
I'm not at all sure that what you have been told is correct. As a design engineer, I've learned to check facts for myself.

M3 and M5 are both Ethylene Glycol based, the difference is that M3 uses OAT (Organic acid) corrosion inhibitors whereas the handbook recommends M5 which uses IAT (Inorganic acid) corrosion inhibitors. Normally these different inhibitors should not be mixed, you can get sludge deposits - a murky color liquid with precipitates as a result, and mixing the two inhibitors also shortens the life of the coolant. There is a way to combine IAT and OAT, requiring an additional chemical to prevent precipitation, but do M3 or M5 contain this extra chemical?

One of the anti-corrosion components in OAT formulations from some coolant manufacturers (e.g. DEX-COOL) is Ethylhexanoic acid which is incompatible with Nylon 6,6 and Silicone rubber, and is known as Plasticizer. It can lead to engine seal failures, and GM faced litigation and near bankrupcy as a result. I don't know if Motorex M3 contains Ethylhexanoic acid, but I'd be worried if it does. For more reading about this see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifreeze

http://www.cleveland.com/business/in...ility_for.html

If Motorex M3 had been used by the KTM importer / distributor in my 'bike, I would ask them to check with Motorex and KTM in Austria whether it contains any Ethylhexanoic acid. If it does, I'd drain the bike as soon as possible and replace with M5 and ask them to pay for it. KTM in Greece supplied my 'bike, and they used M5.
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Old 05-21-2014, 02:49 PM   #7
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I can't believe KTM ships these bikes with no coolant and the dealers are putting it in.

Us 950/990 guys use Toyota coolant, which is also red. Couldn't tell you the technical specs. Starting to sound a little like a mountain from a molehill again...
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Old 05-21-2014, 03:11 PM   #8
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I can't believe KTM ships these bikes with no coolant and the dealers are putting it in.

Us 950/990 guys use Toyota coolant, which is also red. Couldn't tell you the technical specs. Starting to sound a little like a mountain from a molehill again...
KTM Bike's are shipped from the factory with no coolant and with a "special" engine oil for transportation. The importer adds the fluids as part of the "preparation checklist" before sale. As part of the "checklist" the importer warrants that recommended fluids have been used. In the case where M3 has been used instead of M5 this is incorrect, and the importer is liable for any issues that may arise. If any coolant used on a 'bike contains the OAT additive Ethylhexanoic acid then it will degrade the engine seals. This led to near bankrupcy for GM. I don't want it to happen to KTM. Had I "backed off" about the airbox issues and Unifilter etc, and had I given in to the earlier ridicule and personal attacks from you and Wonway, many more 1190 owners would have trashed their engines and KTM would have paid the price.

Having said this, I don't know if Motorex M3 or Toyota coolant contains Ethylhexanoic acid. I hope it doesn't.
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Old 05-21-2014, 07:40 PM   #9
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Had I "backed off" about the airbox issues and Unifilter etc, and had I given in to the earlier ridicule and personal attacks from you and Wonway, many more 1190 owners would have trashed their engines and KTM would have paid the price.
been following these threads pretty closely

what ridicule and personal attacks are you talking about?
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Old 05-22-2014, 06:03 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by RobZorba View Post
I'm not at all sure that what you have been told is correct. As a design engineer, I've learned to check facts for myself.

M3 and M5 are both Ethylene Glycol based, the difference is that M3 uses OAT (Organic acid) corrosion inhibitors whereas the handbook recommends M5 which uses IAT (Inorganic acid) corrosion inhibitors. Normally these different inhibitors should not be mixed, you can get sludge deposits - a murky color liquid with precipitates as a result, and mixing the two inhibitors also shortens the life of the coolant. There is a way to combine IAT and OAT, requiring an additional chemical to prevent precipitation, but do M3 or M5 contain this extra chemical?

One of the anti-corrosion components in OAT formulations from some coolant manufacturers (e.g. DEX-COOL) is Ethylhexanoic acid which is incompatible with Nylon 6,6 and Silicone rubber, and is known as Plasticizer. It can lead to engine seal failures, and GM faced litigation and near bankrupcy as a result. I don't know if Motorex M3 contains Ethylhexanoic acid, but I'd be worried if it does. For more reading about this see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifreeze

http://www.cleveland.com/business/in...ility_for.html

If Motorex M3 had been used by the KTM importer / distributor in my 'bike, I would ask them to check with Motorex and KTM in Austria whether it contains any Ethylhexanoic acid. If it does, I'd drain the bike as soon as possible and replace with M5 and ask them to pay for it. KTM in Greece supplied my 'bike, and they used M5.
Motorex have confirmed to me that M3 & M5 should not be mixed, contrary to what KTM UK and dealers have told me!
At present, I only need to add a small amount to get the expansion tank to mid level, so I think I will do this with distilled water pending deciding what to do about the coolant - any problems with this?
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Old 05-22-2014, 07:53 AM   #11
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Motorex have confirmed to me that M3 & M5 should not be mixed, contrary to what KTM UK and dealers have told me!
At present, I only need to add a small amount to get the expansion tank to mid level, so I think I will do this with distilled water pending deciding what to do about the coolant - any problems with this?
Congratulations that you actually checked this with Motorex and got the answer that I suspected! Sorry to any dealers who are inmates about my skepticism about what dealers say and do, but I reached the stage many years ago where I prefer to check things out direct with manufacturers and their web sites wherever possible. Certainly topping up with up to 0.5 liters distilled water will cause no problems at all so long as you don't overfill. Then at a future date, maybe after 20,000 km you can drain the system and use the recommended M5 coolant.
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Old 05-30-2014, 08:17 AM   #12
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Congratulations that you actually checked this with Motorex and got the answer that I suspected! Sorry to any dealers who are inmates about my skepticism about what dealers say and do, but I reached the stage many years ago where I prefer to check things out direct with manufacturers and their web sites wherever possible. Certainly topping up with up to 0.5 liters distilled water will cause no problems at all so long as you don't overfill. Then at a future date, maybe after 20,000 km you can drain the system and use the recommended M5 coolant.
I emailed KTM UK to ask why they has used non-recommended coolant and got no reply, so I emailed KTM Austria - same question and no reply again.
Apparently KTM's customer care is crap and once you have bought a bike they have no interest in you!
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Old 06-01-2014, 06:26 PM   #13
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I emailed KTM UK to ask why they has used non-recommended coolant and got no reply, so I emailed KTM Austria - same question and no reply again.
Apparently KTM's customer care is crap and once you have bought a bike they have no interest in you!
I think the issue is that the importer/ distributor in each country seems to have complete autonomy from the factory, and so each territory gets whatever policy / decision / service / support the importer decides. There seems to be no mechanism in place by which the manufacturer "enforces" or "trains" the distributors to adopt the policies and recommendations set by the manufacturer.

Some importers / distributors "stick to the book" that is issued by KTM in Austria. The ones who do this include KTM Australia and KTM Eastern Europe. The ones who apparently "do their own thing" and who appear to know better than the manufacturer are KTM USA and KTM UK. How else can owners explain or justify the distributors' decision to use Motorex M3 coolant instead of the M5 which is the one recommended by the manufacturer?
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Old 06-01-2014, 07:31 PM   #14
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At present, I only need to add a small amount to get the expansion tank to mid level, so I think I will do this with distilled water pending deciding what to do about the coolant - any problems with this?[/QUOTE]


This is what I ended up doing to mine. I added enough to be just below full when the engine is cold. It was about 1 cup give or take maybe less but had no issues and temp. has stayed at 4bars since but even with a low level in the overflow the temp remained the same.
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Old 06-01-2014, 07:58 PM   #15
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Now we know (from RedHerring's Q&A with Motorex) not to mix the red stuff with the blue stuff, the only important question remaining ...

Does M3 coolant with OAT additives cause any KTM 1190 engine reliability issues? My guess ... probably not ... so long as it is not mixed with M5. It would be reassuring if someone in USA could ask Motorex to confirm, anyone?
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