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Old 06-23-2014, 11:11 AM   #1
roger 04 rt OP
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R1100GS, R1150GS, R1200GS Wideband O2 & Fueling Projects Part II

The initial round of tests of lambda-shifting that I made on the Motronics and BMSK ECUs covered a broad range of motorcycles. So far the list includes: R1100GS/RT, R1150GS/RT, R1200GS/GSA, F800S/ST/GS, F700GS, F650GS and recently a Husky TR650. The vast majority of those tests were made using the Innovate Motorsports LC-1 Wideband O2 sensor, which has a simulated Narrowband Output. The measurements and results can be found here, 2004 R1150GS/RT R1200GS/GSA Wideband O2 Sensor Project Part I, and on other sites. Although I began the thread as a place to post tests that I made on the LC-1, it seems that product support questions crept in, in violation of ADVrider's strict policy against that sort of thing. As a result the thread was archived to the VENDOR forum.

Here in part II of the research and measurements, we all need to respect the spirit of ADVrider's GSBoxer thread. Therefore if you have a question about the AF-XIED for BMW, please ask it here: BMW-AF-XIED by Nightrider. If specific questions do get asked HERE about that product, I won't be able to answer them and I'll ask the moderators to move those questions to the Vendor thread.

Lastly, GSBoxers is about the GS and GSA boxer motorcycles. Therefore, if you have questions about your RT, I will answer them only in the context of the GS products. The moderators have been clear about RT contamination, they don't want to see it. In that spirit, I will be asking colleagues with R1150GSs and R1200GSs to make any measurements needed to support Motronic and BMSK fueling questions.

The next post, later today or tomorrow, will be about measurements that were recently made on a 2001 single-spark R1150GS. These measurements clearly show the Motronic MA 2.4 learning about fueling and adapting the Long Term Fuel trims. Because the Motronic MA 2.2 and 2.4 lack the computing power to report short and longterm fuel trims, many hold to the belief that those fuel trims don't exist and therefore that the Motronic is unable to learn about mixture. I think you'll find the upcoming data more clear and convincing that the far more technical entry I made here: Motronic MA 2.4 Mixture Learning and Adaptation, that runs for a few pages.

Please join me in supporting the moderators by sticking to the mission of this thread.
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Old 06-23-2014, 11:21 AM   #2
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Thank you roger for your continued work towards this
the entire community has learned much and will continue to learn more through this effort.
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Old 06-23-2014, 11:33 AM   #3
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Thank you roger for your continued work towards this
the entire community has learned much and will continue to learn more through this effort.
If you decide to add an Innovate Motorsports LC-2 to your R1100GS, I think we could get some new, specific info on that platform. The idea of adding a three-position switch On-Off-On would allow two different AFRs and a QD-function for No-Coding or Beige Coding tests.
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Old 06-23-2014, 01:57 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
The next post, later today or tomorrow, will be about measurements that were recently made on a 2001 single-spark R1150GS. These measurements clearly show the Motronic MA 2.4 learning about fueling and adapting the Long Term Fuel trims. Because the Motronic MA 2.2 and 2.4 lack the computing power to report short and longterm fuel trims, many hold to the belief that those fuel trims don't exist and therefore that the Motronic is unable to learn about mixture. I think you'll find the upcoming data more clear and convincing that the far more technical entry I made here: Motronic MA 2.4 Mixture Learning and Adaptation, that runs for a few pages.

Please join me in supporting the moderators by sticking to the mission of this thread.
Thank you for continuing. My butt dyno supports the learning/adaption.
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Old 06-24-2014, 05:36 AM   #5
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The tests and measurements showing how the Motronic learns about fueling and "adapts" it back to stock (Mixture Adaptation) runs for several pages. That explanation might be hard to follow, partly because it's a complex topic, and partly because I had to go through a number of setup steps to show the effect. Recently, I spotted Mixture Adaption in the "wild", meaning that it happened all on its own and in a way that it's visible in simpler data.

Single-Spark R1150GS
Last week while helping another rider with lambda sensor errors, I observed Mixture Adaptation happening in response to a defective O2 sensor. Eventually, the adaptation range was exceeded and the Motronic reported: 4400: Lambda-Control, Upper control limit reached. As most of you know, Mixture Adaptation is the Motronic or BMSK using the O2 sensor to learn and correct fueling errors so that the mixture is always where the catalytic converter is most efficient. In this case, the O2 sensor was about to fail, and the Motronic had trouble learning, but made the Adaptation visible as a result.

The bike that we're going to look at below is a 2001 R1150GS. The owner had a fueling mod but it seemed that it wasn't working because of the errors he was reading from his GS-911. He logged realtime data from the 911 and we got to the bottom of the problem after a few back and forths.

Below is GS-911 data, after we fixed the 1150 by replacing its O2 sensor, showing various sensors, beginning with a cold engine and warming up for several minutes. There are two charts within the chart. If you look at the bottom chart you can see the Engine Oil Temperature (I multiplied it by 10 so it would fit the same scale as other data) warming from a cold engine at 20C (200 on the chart) to 100C. Notice that at 60C engine temperature the Lambda Control signal goes to a "1" value meaning the Motronic is running its Closed Loop program.

Now, go to the top chart and follow the Injection Time line. At 20C it is greater than 3.2 mS and just before the fast idle lever is reduced (look at the TPS sensor line) the injection time is 2.2 mS (we'll look at this on the before chart later). Then lastly, notice that the injection time stays pretty steady at around 2 mS even after the bike goes into Closed Loop Operation. This is normal behavior for all the BMW motorcycle--there is a lot of fuel added to a cold engine that is slowly reduced as it is warmed up.

So in summary, normally when you cold-start, the injection times start out long for enrichment and then settle to a steady final value at idle, even during Closed Loop.



Now we're going to see what happened before the O2 sensor was replaced and how the Motronic was using learning and adaptation. Chart below, here are some things to look at:

1) On the lower half of the chart, the lambda sensor voltage in closed loop never gets higher than about 700 mV. The fueling device being used needs to see richness greater than 800 mV and this was the problem that was resolved by replacing the sensor. However the bad sensor had other consequences and it exposed mixture adaptation in a way we can see it.

2) On the lower half of the chart notice that at 60C the Lambda Control signal goes high, meaning it is starting Closed Loop when the engine reaches that temperature. That's as it should be. Next though notice that it keeps dropping out of Closed Loop and popping back into Closed Loop. That is not usual behavior.

3) Look at the Lambda Sensor voltage line. It takes quite a while from the time Lambda Control goes high until the Lambda Sensor voltage starts its Closed Loop behavior of oscillating between 100 mV and 700 mV (and 800 mV is more normal). It needs the Base Injection Pulse to be increased by Mixture Adaptation as the Motronic tries to richen the mixture.

4) Go to the top chart below and look at the Injection time line (compare it to the good chart above). You can see that the Injection Time decays as the bike warms up, until it reaches Closed Loop. Then a funny thing starts to happen in response to the Lambda Sensor Voltage staying low. The Motronic starts to increase the Base Injection Pulse and doesn't stop until it has increased the Injection Time from 2.05 mS to 2.3 mS. (I've added a dashed line to indicate the Adaptation interval.)

THIS IS MIXTURE ADAPTATION AT WORK. The Motronic saw that the Lambda Sensor Voltage was low, and it kept ratcheting up the Long Term Fuel Trim and adding to to the Injection time until it had enough fuel to get the Lambda Sensor Voltage into a high/low range. Which eventually it does and the Lambda Voltage oscillates as it should.

5) There is a dead time for all injectors that is the sum of the time it takes to turn them on and turn them off--they don't switch instantaneously. Therefore the actual range of times the fuel is being injected isn't 2.05 mS to 2.3 mS, it is 1.25 mS to 2.5 mS (dead time subtracted). Taking the ratio 2.5/2.05, you get 1.22, which means the Motronic added about 22% to fueling during this period. This is why the error-- 4400: Lambda-Control, Upper control limit reached--was found in the Motronic memory by the GS-911. The long term fuel trim appears to have a limit of 20-25%.

Summary
So there you have it. You've got to look closely but the Motronic [u]Learns[u/] about fueling and Adapts. There's no doubt about it.


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Old 06-24-2014, 01:44 PM   #6
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How long does a 02 sensor usually last before they begin to give bad information and how would the operator/user know the 02 sensor is not operating properly or about to fail?
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Old 06-25-2014, 04:05 AM   #7
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How long does a 02 sensor usually last before they begin to give bad information and how would the operator/user know the 02 sensor is not operating properly or about to fail?
On BMW motorcycles they seem to last quite a long time. 50-100,000 miles from some I've seen. Here are some symptoms:

From the Walker Products Web Sites
...
A decrease in fuel efficiency can be a telltale sign that an O2 sensor is not performing as it should. This can happen because of a fuel mixture that is either too lean or too rich.

Other symptoms of a bad oxygen sensor include a rough idle, a misfire, and/ or hesitation when trying to accelerate. Keep in mind, however, that these issues can also have other causes that have no relation to the health of a vehicle’s oxygen sensors. Therefore, none of them alone is cause enough to replace one.
The reality is, it is quite hard to tell if an O2 sensor isn't performing adequately. A GS-911 on R1150s and later models will show you its operating characteristics. Alternatively you can use an oscilloscope and check the period of oscillation at idle, in Closed Loop.

Also to work well the heater needs to operate and there should be no internal shorts in the sensor for the R series BMW motorcycles.

Certain fueling devices also need O2 sensors that can reach 800-900 mV so that the rich area can be measured accurately.
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Old 06-25-2014, 07:20 AM   #8
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Thanks for the info Roger. I ask because My 01 GS has 61k miles on the odo and I don't have much history of this bike or know what a fresh well tuned 1150 feels like during a ride. It seems to idle fine after a two minute warmup, but not before. It does hesitat after decelerating up to and into a turn and beginning the throttle roll on to accelerate out of the turn it hesitates enough that during a city street turn I have learned to keep a finger on the clutch lever in case of a engine stumble or stall. The exhaust pipe does have black soot in it. Seems like the exhaust residue should be lighter in color. It was when the 02 sensor was unplugged. Also when cold starting the exhaust now resembles a radial engine exhaust in that it will puff blue-white smoke for the first five to six ignition of fuel pulses of startup. When I first rode the bike after purchasing it it had a very noticeable throttle lag. After discovering the 02 sensor was unplugged from the motronic I reconnected the 02 plug and noticed a much reduced throttle lag during the next ride. I have installed a AX-FIED 02 sensor device but have not ridden the bike since the install.
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Old 06-25-2014, 07:36 AM   #9
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So Roger, it appears that BMW and Bosch have done a good job of controlling engine fueling on our boxers with a minimum of sensors and hardware. Until you exposed the Motronic for what it is, I was of the opinion that the Motronic was a somewhat crude ECU.

And while I don't know the details, I understand that some H-D models use spark gap ionization to detect detonation, a clever scheme.

I recently changed spark plugs and engine oil in my '01 and now am realizing 43 MPG, up from ~41.2 MPG. I attribute some of this to changes in seasonal fuel blends but, that is only a guess.

I continue to follow your fascinating work. Thank you for your efforts.
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Old 06-25-2014, 12:41 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by liviob View Post
Thanks for the info Roger. I ask because My 01 GS has 61k miles on the odo and I don't have much history of this bike or know what a fresh well tuned 1150 feels like during a ride. It seems to idle fine after a two minute warmup, but not before. It does hesitat after decelerating up to and into a turn and beginning the throttle roll on to accelerate out of the turn it hesitates enough that during a city street turn I have learned to keep a finger on the clutch lever in case of a engine stumble or stall. The exhaust pipe does have black soot in it. Seems like the exhaust residue should be lighter in color. It was when the 02 sensor was unplugged. Also when cold starting the exhaust now resembles a radial engine exhaust in that it will puff blue-white smoke for the first five to six ignition of fuel pulses of startup. When I first rode the bike after purchasing it it had a very noticeable throttle lag. After discovering the 02 sensor was unplugged from the motronic I reconnected the 02 plug and noticed a much reduced throttle lag during the next ride. I have installed a AX-FIED 02 sensor device but have not ridden the bike since the install.
I'll skip any comments on the AF here but if your bike isn't idling well before warm-up, something else may be wrong.

First though, let me ask about your routine. In the charts above on the 2001 R1150GS, I noticed that when the fast idle lever is dropped fully and the throttle is on the stops, there is no warm up enrichment. When not-warmed-up these bikes need a little extra fuel until they hit Closed Loop. My 1150 doesn't run so well either, I leave the fast idle lever in "mid' position a little longer.

So how long do you keep the fast idle lever fully up and how long in the Mid position?
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Old 06-25-2014, 01:28 PM   #11
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I usually move the fast idle lever to full on when the engine is cold. Then to start the engine I need to add about 1/8 throttle or the engine will usually not start right up. If I leave the throttle off the engine will start and pop a few times run rough and die. It will repeat this until I add a little throttle. After getting it to start and continue running I will hold the RPM up to 2k or so for 30sec to 1 min after that it will idle on full fast idle for another 1min then turn off the fast idle and it will idle smoothly. After being run and warmed up the engine will start without the fast idle lever as long as the engine oil temp gauge shows warm oil.
I does seem odd to me that it needs throttle during cold startup with EFI to start. I just havnt got around to asking about it here at ADVRider.
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Old 06-25-2014, 02:28 PM   #12
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I have wondered this too, initially I thought that the motronic was likely too simple a device and they went the cheap route, but now I wonder, was a time saving effort to get the bike into production faster? a hold over from previous bike designs?

interesting for sure.


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I usually move the fast idle lever to full on when the engine is cold. Then to start the engine I need to add about 1/8 throttle or the engine will usually not start right up. If I leave the throttle off the engine will start and pop a few times run rough and die. It will repeat this until I add a little throttle. After getting it to start and continue running I will hold the RPM up to 2k or so for 30sec to 1 min after that it will idle on full fast idle for another 1min then turn off the fast idle and it will idle smoothly. After being run and warmed up the engine will start without the fast idle lever as long as the engine oil temp gauge shows warm oil.
I does seem odd to me that it needs throttle during cold startup with EFI to start. I just havnt got around to asking about it here at ADVRider.
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Old 06-25-2014, 03:40 PM   #13
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MFOF does your 1100 start the same as my 1150?
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Old 06-25-2014, 04:11 PM   #14
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Some people do not realize that the fast idle speed will not only depend on how far you pull the switch, but also on how the two adjusters on the TBs are set. If the cable is too slack at the adjusters, then the fast idle switch will not be able to pull the butterflies as much as it should.

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Old 06-25-2014, 04:13 PM   #15
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BTW As I have a remaining LC1 on the shelves, I will check this thread carefully ;-) I definitely ant to run the closed loop a tiny bit richer for less vibrations and more smoothness under 4K RPM
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