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Old 09-01-2014, 04:21 AM   #1
amir_zwara OP
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95 Honda CH80

Fellas,

It's been a long while since I've posted here... many an adventure has happened on my Versys since I last visited. I've also developed a taste for the MKII Toyota Supra, having picked up 2 of them in the last year...

All that is neither here nor there though, as I come seeking help for my little brothers 95 Honda 4-stroke 80cc Scooter.

He picked this thing up a few weeks ago, to be able to get back and forth to his first year of college, and it was in pretty rough shape.

It sometimes (50/50) has a problem starting up, though as soon as it does start it runs like a top.

We cleaned the carb... have played around with the idle...
we found a crack in the cheap Chinese aftermarket exhaust near where it mounts to the engine, so we swapped that out with a clean OEM unit from a motorbike junk yard... that seemed to help for 2 days and then it wouldn't start again.
I'm not sure what else to check for... I was thinking the automatic choke may be bad, but from what I've read if it was the scooter would have issues even after starting up until the engine was fully warmed up.
I was also thinking, it could be engine compression.... but again, wouldn't the bike hesitate or just run poorly at all times if that was the case?

Maybe the starter? How would I know or test that?

I'm up to hear any ideas and try just about anything, especially if anyone has had similar experiences with Honda scooters.
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Old 09-01-2014, 09:03 AM   #2
Wentwest
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A failing battery can do this. Also, make sure the connection between the spark plug wire and the cap that snaps on the plug is clean.
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Old 09-01-2014, 12:18 PM   #3
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Battery is new as well, of course it dies after trying to start the scooter when it's acting up... but I throw it on the trickle charge and it seems to charge right back up.

I'll double check the connection between the spark plug and the spark wire...
searching on here someone else seems to have a spark issue with the same scooter...
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Old 09-14-2014, 12:30 PM   #4
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Question Progress... but still seeking help...

Ok, so maybe someone can help me out now that I've gotten further along...

I have replaced the carb with a brand new one, new "electric enrichment thermal valve" (Choke) on it.
I've replaced all the fuel lines, and vacuum lines, even ones that were not there to begin with.

Cleaned the gas tank, new in tank fuel filter, added an inline fuel filter as well, and new "automatic fuel valve" (basically a vac operated petcock).

After washing the whole engine area of the bike down with engine de-greaser, it killed the spark so new ignition coil and spark plug.

New air box (the original was cracking), new air filter. new gaskets between air box and carb, and carb and engine. New gasket on exhaust. Everything is nice and tight.

Getting good spark now and engine compression is about 120. A little bit of starter fluid and I can get it started right up, and it continues running just fine after that.

But it still is having issues starting on its own. I think I've narrowed it down to fuel flow...

Basically I think I've narrowed it down to initial fuel delivery and it's not a choke issue (again, electric type choke and its brand spanking new).

The "Automatic Fuel Valve" is like a petcock that plugs right into the tank, it has 2 hoses coming off of it, one delivers fuel to carb and the other is vacuum hose which plugs into manifold between the engine and the carb. The way it operates is that when you pull air through (towards engine) the vacuum hose, it delivers fuel to the carb. When I pull the hoses off, and suck on the vacuum hose fuel flows just fine through the fuel hose, when I plug the air hose back in and crank it fuel barely trickles through the fuel hose. It's like the cranking over of the engine isn't causing enough vacuum to deliver proper fuel, but once the engine starts there is plenty of vacuum to keep fuel flowing.

I have the official service/repair manual (http://www.motorscooterguide.net/Man...ice_Manual.pdf), but no where in there does it show how to troubleshoot that particular symptom. Just how to test all the individual components, which have all been replaced and/or tested at this point.

So.... anyone have any hunches?
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Old 09-15-2014, 10:03 AM   #5
Eliter85
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You could always try a fresh CDI, they're pretty cheap. My scooter (1985 CH150) started having a very inconsistent spark which resulted in it having trouble starting. Just try to see a steady spark when you hold the starter.

Other then that when I first got my scooter it was acting similarly and the problem was that the carb - engine rubber boot had a huge crack down it.

Also if you think it is fuel flow you could try disconnecting a coolant line and starting it. Then you should have coolant pouring out. If you're not seeing that then there has to be some sort of blockage in the vacuum system. If thats the case I would check the vacuum points that go into the carb boot and make sure it's not blocked at all. I think the other main point is near the transmission.

Those are the only two suggestions I could think of at the moment.
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Old 09-15-2014, 08:30 PM   #6
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Ch80 know for starting issue if Valve aren't ajested right . Also burn valve can do the same thing. Since it did have a muffler issue that could also have lead to lightly burned exhaust valve but ajested them and so what is what. Beyond that Do you have both the O rings on the manifold block that the carb attaches to that has vacum line to it . Theres 2 of them and that also could lead to hard starting? Also could be cracked leading to same issue. Stock old air lines etc could be blocked 1 buck a foot to replace at nappa auto.
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Old 09-16-2014, 07:45 AM   #7
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I don't believe the CDI is bad as I'm getting a very strong and consistent spark now with the new ignition coil. I suppose I can pull it off and test it with the multimeter to be safe.

The valves.... yeah that is actually next on my list. This thing has a little over 10k miles on it, and judging from the state of the rest of the bike I'm willing to bet the valves have probably never been touched. So I ordered the correct size feeler gauge, and when it gets in I guess I'll look there. I have never done a "valve job" before... but what the hell, I got the manual so I guess I'll just follow it step by step.

Yes the manifold between the carb and engine has new Orings, and as stated all the vacuum hoses have been replaced with new. I really don't think it's an air leak but I suppose I can spray some carb cleaner here and there around seals to double check and play it on the safe side.

Thanks for the input fellas, I appreciate it greatly.
Having done all kinds of mechanical work before including swapping transmission on a Honda accord, you would think this little scooter would be easy... but damn is it really kicking my butt, every time I pinpoint and fix one issue another rears its head, and all I wanna do is get this thing running right!

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Old 09-16-2014, 08:42 PM   #8
fullmetalscooter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amir_zwara View Post
I don't believe the CDI is bad as I'm getting a very strong and consistent spark now with the new ignition coil. I suppose I can pull it off and test it with the multimeter to be safe.

The valves.... yeah that is actually next on my list. This thing has a little over 10k miles on it, and judging from the state of the rest of the bike I'm willing to bet the valves have probably never been touched. So I ordered the correct size feeler gauge, and when it gets in I guess I'll look there. I have never done a "valve job" before... but what the hell, I got the manual so I guess I'll just follow it step by step.

Yes the manifold between the carb and engine has new Orings, and as stated all the vacuum hoses have been replaced with new. I really don't think it's an air leak but I suppose I can spray some carb cleaner here and there around seals to double check and play it on the safe side.

Thanks for the input fellas, I appreciate it greatly.
Having done all kinds of mechanical work before including swapping transmission on a Honda accord, you would think this little scooter would be easy... but damn is it really kicking my butt, every time I pinpoint and fix one issue another rears its head, and all I wanna do is get this thing running right!
DOnt know the link but there an elite forum for honda scooter online. I know I ve read a write up on how to do there or it was you tube. wish I had the link. I know how you feel I know what wrong with my elite ch80 but Rather not open up a can of worms by fixxing a burned vavle. MOre then like I going to drive 5 hours on get another engine from a guy whom only deals in elite ch80 parts for 50 bucks.
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Old 09-17-2014, 11:02 AM   #9
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Could try the elite 250 yahoo group. Pretty sure there's I for there on elite 80s I've found a fair amount of info there on the 150.

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Old 09-18-2014, 12:29 PM   #10
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There is a factory service manual at http://www.motorscooterguide.net/Man...ice_Manual.pdf

There's no doubt that a poorly adjusted exhaust valve will make the engine hard to start. Will the engine restart easy or hard after it has been running and is hot? How about 2 hours later? The fuel flow does not need to be very strong if the carb bowl is already full.
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Old 09-18-2014, 03:18 PM   #11
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I think I'm just lucky. I'm fairly sure my scooter has never had a valve adjustment done.. Almost 50,000km on er.. And I'm betting your ch80 is a lot less then that.

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Old 09-18-2014, 08:28 PM   #12
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http://hondaspree.net/phpBB3/ here the honda ch50 spree and also deals ch80 forum.
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Old 09-21-2014, 05:43 AM   #13
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Thanks for the link to the spree forum, I was able to find at least some basic info there that should help when I dig in tomorrow.
I hope the exhaust valve is not burnt, I'm already on the "almost not worth it" line with this thing.

Wentwest, the issue is consistent whether the engine is warmed up or not.
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Old 09-21-2014, 07:35 AM   #14
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I've worked on a friends CH80 that had the same symptoms and it was tight valves and it had less than 8k on it . On my own CH 80 I had to remove an inline filter that I had installed because it hindered the fuel flow at cruising speeds when vaccum to the petcock is lower. I went crazy trying to figure out why it kept starving for fuel on the road but would rev cleanly as soon as I'd pull over.After I realized the problem got worse as the fuel in the tank lessened . It's gravity feed and the outlet from the tank is only marginally higher than the carb and the extra restriction of the extra fuel filter hindered the fuel flow.
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Old 09-21-2014, 03:42 PM   #15
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The electric choke things suck. Replaced mine with a manual lever but it was a bitch to get to. Wanted to rig up a cable or lever but never got around to it.
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