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Old 07-20-2014, 12:24 PM   #31
vaara OP
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So I got a perfect score on my riding eval, then promptly put my foot down during the demo for #10. :facepalm:

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Old 07-20-2014, 01:17 PM   #32
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I see your training is spread over three weekends.

Good lessons to experience how to council out.
It has lasting affect on class and impacts to coach too.
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Old 07-20-2014, 07:34 PM   #33
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Exercise #2 gets a lot of people. Most RCCs think it is easy, whereas most experienced RCs see how crucial a proper Exercise #2 is to the rest of the exercises.
The most difficult thing about exercise 2 (IMHO) is the dog-paddle U-turn in neutral. A couple of our students (including the ones who dropped out) just couldn't get the bikes in neutral without shutting off the engines first, which was really annoying for them, not to mention the RCCs involved.

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Old 07-20-2014, 07:47 PM   #34
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So I got a perfect score on my riding eval, then promptly put my foot down during the demo for #10. :facepalm
I tell my class...we are always learning and that every time I coach a class,, I learn something I need to practice..

When I mess up...its a learning point for all of us!!
What do I need to practice?
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Old 07-20-2014, 07:53 PM   #35
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And...my 2 cents...... finding neutral....training bikes are used and abused and put away crying ....be gentle with YOUR bike, and finding neutral should be easy.
Sometimes a slight low rev of engine held steady helps with finding neutral.

Good on you for the perfect score...mine was 99....tad slow in the corner.,.
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Old 07-20-2014, 07:53 PM   #36
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I tell my class...we are always learning and that every time I coach a class,, I learn something I need to practice..

When I mess up...its a learning point for all of us!!
What do I need to practice?
I expect to have some students who are better riders than I am.

In fact, one student who almost got counseled out after #9 then proceeded to ride The Box perfectly.

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Old 07-20-2014, 07:57 PM   #37
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A couple of our students (including the ones who dropped out) just couldn't get the bikes in neutral without shutting off the engines first
If you read the objective for exercise #2 you'll see it says nothing about shifting or finding neutral. With that in mind if I see a student struggling at all, I'll reach my hand down to the shifter and find neutral for them. And I'll tell them most bikes are much easier to find neutral on than our trainers. Again, exercise #2 is NOT a "finding neutral" exercise.

Exercise #2 is where students' confidence needs to be boosted, not challenged. To that end I take issue with drakehouse about "counseling out". There are way too many RiderCoaches out there who seem to be on a power trip. Counseling someone out should be an absolute last resort. I know coaches who have taught for 20+ years and have never counseled someone out.
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Old 07-20-2014, 08:09 PM   #38
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Yah, finding neutral is just a convenience skill. If we had turntables (or, better yet, hoverbikes) it wouldn't even be an issue.
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Old 07-20-2014, 08:30 PM   #39
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Yah, finding neutral is just a convenience skill.
Bingo. You're teaching a safety class; the number of riders that die because they can't find neutral is... probably zero. There are models that just don't handle the abuse a beginning class will give them gracefully.
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Old 07-20-2014, 08:38 PM   #40
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In real life ....how often does anyone use neutral???


Yes, I've asked my class that sometimes.
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Old 07-21-2014, 04:13 AM   #41
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I'll reach my hand down to the shifter and find neutral for them.
This will get you written up by QA here in VA. Because of the "monkey see, monkey do" issues. The student could possibly reach down and put the bike into neutral with their hand.


If I see they can't find neutral (almost always the Rebels), then I say "no big deal, it's just for safety. shut the bike off, find neutral and restart or shut it off and hold the clutch while you turn around."

But there's always the one stubborn student who will continue to try to find neutral...
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Old 07-21-2014, 07:20 AM   #42
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This will get you written up by QA here in VA. Because of the "monkey see, monkey do" issues. The student could possibly reach down and put the bike into neutral with their hand.
I could see that happening, though fortunately it's never happened to me. And it's nearly impossible as a student would have to take their left hand off the clutch of a running bike to reach down to the shifter. Obviously that's not going to work. But I'm good with the engine off/squeeze the clutch method too.

My two concerns are that I've seen students freak out and quit or get counseled out in Ex. 2 for no good reason other than not being able to find neutral. And perhaps even worse, the more time wasted trying to find neutral, the less time spent learning the friction zone, which is the objective of the exercise and FAR more important.
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Old 07-21-2014, 08:37 AM   #43
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I haven't seen it happen, but in my RCP one of the RCTs told me that happened to him. The student held the clutch and reached over with his right hand to shift to neutral.. and yes, promptly fell over. Another RCT said one of his students held the clutch with his right hand and used his left to find neutral. Luckily, he didn't fall over.

And yeah, I have been gigged by that one stubborn student before on a QA report. Even after the first time when I went over and hit the kill switch, telling him to just shut it off and find neutral, he continued to be stubborn about it. So it got noted that I allowed the student too many attempts at finding neutral, therefore taking away from riding time.

I've also gotten gigged because a student pulled off during the first part of ex 5 to ask me to explain to him why he wasn't making the turns at the corners. I said "press forward on the handgrip in the direction you want to go. So we're going left, so press forward with your left hand. Ok? get back out there." And I stepped back. Then he asked another question... quick answer and "Ok, go...", while stepping back away from him. Then he asked another... *sigh* Yep "Helen spent nearly 5 minutes counseling a student during Ex 5 instead of allowing him to ride."
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Old 07-21-2014, 08:38 AM   #44
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What about having them dismount and pushing the bike around for them? Is that an option?

Seems like it would save time, if nothing else.
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Old 07-21-2014, 08:42 AM   #45
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What about having them dismount and pushing the bike around for them? Is that an option?
Nope, the only time they're allowed to push the bike is during the initial "I ran out of gas" exercise... er... I mean the transition between 1 and 2.



In case it isn't obvious, we have a very specific script/set of instructions for how we run a BRC.
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