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Old 08-01-2014, 06:35 PM   #286
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But this thread can still serve as open discussion for other questions, can't it? Surely there's already a cop bash thread in the csm section.
There's an everything bash thread in CSM. It's why it exists.
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Old 08-02-2014, 02:01 PM   #287
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Hey River,

I firmly believe that the "us vs them" thing is an enigma without feet. By that I mean it was started by an idiot with low verbal skills.....or possibly by the media, same difference. I truly believe that "cops" make connections with "citizens"....felon, or traffic stops, one person at a time. In the case of felons...if threatening you, don't hesitate. In the case of the rest of us, let us see your human side; including your humor. I've had three close friends who were cops, very funny guys, but maybe I just appreciate that kind of humor.
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Making connections with individuals at individual interactions is something totally different that "us vs them". "Us vs Them" isn't some enigma or BS catch phrase. It's a real condition that all humans and most animals for that matter develop. It's prevalent in nearly all aspects of life from the worker drone working at some huge factory to the nurse at a hospital. We all tend to make friends with our peers, we all tend to attempt to "stick together" when faced with some sorta adversity.

When a cop has to deal with shiteaters on a day to day basis, I can completly understand becoming jaded, starting to profile certain people, vehicles, their homes or where they live. Pofiling works for the most part. Problem is, when the cop profiles someone incorrectly {which is easy to do considering there are alwys exceptions to every rule or outliers and anomalies that exist} jumps early with the attitude, incorrectly reacts to some situation and makes a mistake. That mistake can be as small as biting some dudes head off that was truely doing nothing wrong to as bad as killing an innocent person.

When that happens, cops being human,,, often don't want to face the consequences so they lie. The individual cop lies, his buddies who are after all, his friends,,, they lie for him even when they know he is wrong. When it gets to his supervisors or to the captain or sheriff level,,,, they "know how it is" and they take the cops side as common practice. Then, once the shit hits the fan and some 80yr old great grandmother is shot dead because the cops were over zealous, lied to get a no knock warrant and then went in, guns blazing, figures out they did a very bad thing,,,, start lieing some more. Drugs get planted to back up the lie, good cops try to help their friends with more lies, captains and sheriffs first knee jerk reaction is to back "their people" and more lies are come up with or attempted to be backed up.

Then, as the lies pile up, facts repeatedly disprove the lies,,,,, the upper managment figures out what happened isn't too kosher but by now,,,, a huge lawsuit is pending, careers are on the line, pensions apt to be forfeited. Then more lies because "there is too much to lose now".

The above happened here. The above happens all the time, enough to where it's almost commom place to hear on the news. 'Us vs Them" an enigma without feet? Started by some idiot with low verbal skills??? Again, we'll have to agree to disagree because the premise is real, happens everyday all over the country, in every state, in every county, in every city,,,, large or small. Just depends to what extent, how bad it gets and what the ultimate outcomes are.
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Old 08-02-2014, 02:52 PM   #288
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Making connections with individuals at individual interactions is something totally different that "us vs them". "Us vs Them" isn't some enigma or BS catch phrase. It's a real condition that all humans and most animals for that matter develop. It's prevalent in nearly all aspects of life from the worker drone working at some huge factory to the nurse at a hospital. We all tend to make friends with our peers, we all tend to attempt to "stick together" when faced with some sorta adversity.

When a cop has to deal with shiteaters on a day to day basis, I can completly understand becoming jaded, starting to profile certain people, vehicles, their homes or where they live. Pofiling works for the most part. Problem is, when the cop profiles someone incorrectly {which is easy to do considering there are alwys exceptions to every rule or outliers and anomalies that exist} jumps early with the attitude, incorrectly reacts to some situation and makes a mistake. That mistake can be as small as biting some dudes head off that was truely doing nothing wrong to as bad as killing an innocent person.

When that happens, cops being human,,, often don't want to face the consequences so they lie. The individual cop lies, his buddies who are after all, his friends,,, they lie for him even when they know he is wrong. When it gets to his supervisors or to the captain or sheriff level,,,, they "know how it is" and they take the cops side as common practice. Then, once the shit hits the fan and some 80yr old great grandmother is shot dead because the cops were over zealous, lied to get a no knock warrant and then went in, guns blazing, figures out they did a very bad thing,,,, start lieing some more. Drugs get planted to back up the lie, good cops try to help their friends with more lies, captains and sheriffs first knee jerk reaction is to back "their people" and more lies are come up with or attempted to be backed up.

Then, as the lies pile up, facts repeatedly disprove the lies,,,,, the upper managment figures out what happened isn't too kosher but by now,,,, a huge lawsuit is pending, careers are on the line, pensions apt to be forfeited. Then more lies because "there is too much to lose now".

The above happened here. The above happens all the time, enough to where it's almost commom place to hear on the news. 'Us vs Them" an enigma without feet? Started by some idiot with low verbal skills??? Again, we'll have to agree to disagree because the premise is real, happens everyday all over the country, in every state, in every county, in every city,,,, large or small. Just depends to what extent, how bad it gets and what the ultimate outcomes are.
Well, first thanks for taking the time to write all that. You stated your position very well, even though I don't completely agree with you.

First: Would you mind giving me some idea of your "background", former/current LEO perhaps?

I'd like to address a couple of your excellent points:

Profiling: We all do it, because "most" of the time it's correct. Yes, when it's wrong and someone gets hurt, the person responsible should suffer the consequences. However again, we all do it, even you. The reason we do it is because it helps us by comparing current experiences with past experiences, thereby more quickly able to react/recognize potential danger/make potentially important or life saving decisions, etc. If we didn't "profile" as a species, it's possible we wouldn't even be here. Of course, the media has now given the term a bad name. (Bless the fucking media).

us vs them: Yes, we all tend to gravitate toward our peers and stick together when faced with adversity, you and I don't differ there. However the "us vs them" mentality implies that no one in law enforcement can trust or be trusted by the rest of us. That's purest bullshit in my opinion. That's why I said it was created by someone with low verbal skills and probably a lower IQ.....It sounds like a sound bite, and it's just not that simple. Probably way too complicated to get into here.....however I've not known many LEOs who subscribed to the theory. Actually just the opposite.
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Old 08-02-2014, 04:09 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by 390beretta View Post
Well, first thanks for taking the time to write all that. You stated your position very well, even though I don't completely agree with you.

First: Would you mind giving me some idea of your "background", former/current LEO perhaps?

Not LEO, my dad was. Know several LEO personally. Some good, some very good, some {roughly 50%} of the LEO that I personally know,,,,, not so good. I have in the past even thought of joining the LEO profession. I am as honest with myself as I am with others. It would not be a good fit for me. I wouldn't fit-in anywhere because I hate shiteaters and would loath having to interact with them on a daily basis and on the other hand, could not stand back and watch a bad cop do bad things. This would alienate my co-workers and I beieve, would result is a work envioronment that just wouldn't work out.

I'd like to address a couple of your excellent points:

Profiling: We all do it, because "most" of the time it's correct. Yes, when it's wrong and someone gets hurt, the person responsible should suffer the consequences. However again, we all do it, even you. The reason we do it is because it helps us by comparing current experiences with past experiences, thereby more quickly able to react/recognize potential danger/make potentially important or life saving decisions, etc. If we didn't "profile" as a species, it's possible we wouldn't even be here. Of course, the media has now given the term a bad name. (Bless the fucking media).

You are right, we agree. I only brought up profiling as a segway into an hypothetical {or real} example of how the "Us vs Them" attitude begins, propagates and gets proven out every day. I don't mind profiling and understand that it mostly works and has it's place. Problem is that many cops can't profile in a courteous or at the very least, professional manner. Example, officer sees a rough looking {or for that matter, very nice, expensive} vehicle in an area that's known for crime, drugs or what-not. Officer immediatly pulls over the vehicle based on that profile. Instead of acting like a professional and keeping a professional attitude, the driver of that vehicle is often treated like they have in fact done something wrong.

Even once the cops verifies there is no illegal activity, the cops still keeps up with the attitude because they think "they just aren't doing something bad right now" rather than admit their "spidey senses"could be a bit off. They subject that innocent person to a good dose of piss and vinegar and expect that person who has done nothing wrong except fit a profile to then tuck their tail and kiss ass even when presented with alpha male attitude and at times, lies at to why they were pulled over {have to have "probable cause" ya know}.

Again, I have no real problem with profiling or "fishing trips" as long as they are done in a professional, preferably courteous manner with attitude or lies. Profiling is a non starter here, ancillary to the main point, that being the Us vs Them attitude.

us vs them: Yes, we all tend to gravitate toward our peers and stick together when faced with adversity, you and I don't differ there. However the "us vs them" mentality implies that no one in law enforcement can trust or be trusted by the rest of us. That's purest bullshit in my opinion. That's why I said it was created by someone with low verbal skills and probably a lower IQ.....It sounds like a sound bite, and it's just not that simple. Probably way too complicated to get into here.....however I've not known many LEOs who subscribed to the theory. Actually just the opposite.
It no more implies that "all cops can not be trusted" than profiling individuals, their vehicles, location, residense or place of residense {or lack there of} implies they are shiteaters up to something illegal.

I have already stated that some of the LEO that I know are good people. I have asked them point blank, questions on this very subject and I already stated that even the cops admit to a "Us vs Them" mentality,,,, even the good cops. Why would someone who I see as an honest, honorable person share something or share the opinion of something that would be detrimental if it were not true? In these instances, they were simply being honest and truthful with a freind that asked a pointed question.

I have personally experienced it. I have freinds that have experienced it. I even had freinds that experienced it who later became cops who state that it isn't some liberal, media driven BS and that it's engrained at a very basic level. Not all "Us vs Them" episodes result in 80yr old grand mothers being sot to death for no reason. It could be as simple as an innocent civilian's basic rights being trampled on and when the citizen has the audacity to make a complaint or try to get something done about it,,,, are met with this very attitude.

Again, the "Us vs Them" attitude is proven out nearly everyday across the country. It simply isn't some liberal catch phrase. It again,,,, is part of human nature and it's becoming more ingrained and more prevalent now that we live in an age of huge muli-million dollar lawsuits. You might not like the phrase "Us vs Them" because you think using that language lumps all cops as bad cops. In some ways, some, if not many do exactly that but damned near everyone I know with half a brain knows full well that not all cops are bad. It is used exactly as a simple, quick phrase to describe this phenomenon/behavior.

BTW, sorry for being so wordy and basically writing a book at each post but this topic deserves legitimate debate,,,,, not simple, quick "catch phrases" right?
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Old 08-02-2014, 06:02 PM   #290
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It no more implies that "all cops can not be trusted" than profiling individuals, their vehicles, location, residense or place of residense {or lack there of} implies they are shiteaters up to something illegal.

I have already stated that some of the LEO that I know are good people. I have asked them point blank, questions on this very subject and I already stated that even the cops admit to a "Us vs Them" mentality,,,, even the good cops. Why would someone who I see as an honest, honorable person share something or share the opinion of something that would be detrimental if it were not true? In these instances, they were simply being honest and truthful with a freind that asked a pointed question.

I have personally experienced it. I have freinds that have experienced it. I even had freinds that experienced it who later became cops who state that it isn't some liberal, media driven BS and that it's engrained at a very basic level. Not all "Us vs Them" episodes result in 80yr old grand mothers being sot to death for no reason. It could be as simple as an innocent civilian's basic rights being trampled on and when the citizen has the audacity to make a complaint or try to get something done about it,,,, are met with this very attitude.

Again, the "Us vs Them" attitude is proven out nearly everyday across the country. It simply isn't some liberal catch phrase. It again,,,, is part of human nature and it's becoming more ingrained and more prevalent now that we live in an age of huge muli-million dollar lawsuits. You might not like the phrase "Us vs Them" because you think using that language lumps all cops as bad cops. In some ways, some, if not many do exactly that but damned near everyone I know with half a brain knows full well that not all cops are bad. It is used exactly as a simple, quick phrase to describe this phenomenon/behavior.

BTW, sorry for being so wordy and basically writing a book at each post but this topic deserves legitimate debate,,,,, not simple, quick "catch phrases" right?
"not simple catch phrases" Yep, we're on the same page there. Thanks again for the thought and time typing.

I still don't believe the "us vs. them" stuff.....that's not been my experience with LEOs I've dealt with, some just on minor traffic stops, but then I'm older and not very threatening looking ("looking", being the key word there). Having said that, I'm curious where you live? I'm in AZ, Phx.

Thanks again for your time and thought. A small thing: Please don't use colored font, it's damn near impossible to read on a black background. Thanks.
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Old 08-02-2014, 06:31 PM   #291
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Trust is an interesting question... why should LEO's be trusted? I'm not proposing being obnoxious or rude but for what reason should citizens trust them? In a traffic stop he clearly doesn't trust me.. hand on the gun, careful approach- ready to escalate at a moments notice. I suspect given the odds he should be like that in a traffic stop but I'm the loser regardless and if he's a bad apple then I'm the double-loser.

I've not personally been treated rudely by a LEO traffic stop or otherwise OTOH a lying cop got us into substantial trouble w/ child protective services, a court date, lawyer bills etc.. the cop never even had to show up in court. We tried to get surveillance footage of the incident, unfortunately no cameras were there to contradict him... it was easier to get a deal from the DA rather than risk a judge's agenda.

I'm all for doing whatever helps the cop relax during a stop anything else is just bad practice. Seems to me trust is something that is developed between peers not given to someone because they have a badge.

So yeah cops are "them" for sure since I am not inside the blue line by family or work.. my goal is to not be involved with them at all and if I have to be, detach as quickly and cleanly as I can.
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Old 08-02-2014, 06:43 PM   #292
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I don't have much in common with Doctors or Accountants. Don't know any. None in the family. No interest in the profession. But when I need one I turn to them and trust them to help me.

Most of you have spoken of LEOs from the point of view of offender or wrongly accused. Try seeing them from the point of view of a victim or someone in need of assistance.

As for us vs. them. It is a job hazard when working in a problem area. But in rural America and even suburbia the LEOs often have a lot in common with the folks in their patrol area. For the past twenty years I felt a connection to most of the people I came across.
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Old 08-02-2014, 07:03 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by 390beretta View Post
"not simple catch phrases" Yep, we're on the same page there. Thanks again for the thought and time typing.

I still don't believe the "us vs. them" stuff.....that's not been my experience with LEOs I've dealt with, some just on minor traffic stops, but then I'm older and not very threatening looking ("looking", being the key word there). Having said that, I'm curious where you live? I'm in AZ, Phx.

Thanks again for your time and thought. A small thing: Please don't use colored font, it's damn near impossible to read on a black background. Thanks.

Sorry about the blue font.

Live in northern Ga.
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Old 08-02-2014, 07:18 PM   #294
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Trust is an interesting question... why should LEO's be trusted? I'm not proposing being obnoxious or rude but for what reason should citizens trust them? In a traffic stop he clearly doesn't trust me.. hand on the gun, careful approach- ready to escalate at a moments notice. I suspect given the odds he should be like that in a traffic stop but I'm the loser regardless and if he's a bad apple then I'm the double-loser.

I've not personally been treated rudely by a LEO traffic stop or otherwise OTOH a lying cop got us into substantial trouble w/ child protective services, a court date, lawyer bills etc.. the cop never even had to show up in court. We tried to get surveillance footage of the incident, unfortunately no cameras were there to contradict him... it was easier to get a deal from the DA rather than risk a judge's agenda.

I'm all for doing whatever helps the cop relax during a stop anything else is just bad practice. Seems to me trust is something that is developed between peers not given to someone because they have a badge.

So yeah cops are "them" for sure since I am not inside the blue line by family or work.. my goal is to not be involved with them at all and if I have to be, detach as quickly and cleanly as I can.
Well Pounce....sounds like you had some bad experiences (s). I really hope you have better ones in the future.
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Old 08-02-2014, 07:25 PM   #295
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Thought about them as a victim too- our house was robbed a couple years ago. I called them.. they showed up, took a statement, a 2nd pair came by and dusted for prints.. all routine stuff they did their job and left we stayed out of the way- no expectations on either side of further action or resolution, just checking the boxes so the paperwork could be filed... so thats fine.

But I don't see trust here.. I called them they did their job and the paperwork got filed without a hitch- I'd call that a successful interaction. If it had been something bad I imagine they would be more involved, perhaps they'd catch the perp and I'd be involved some more to help the victim see justice done... still do not see trust here the system will do its thing whether its appropriate or not.

Not saying cops are bad or ftp or any such thing only that cops are manifestly "them" because of the disparity of power and their organization. Deal with a doc or an accountant you can fire them and go elsewhere, you're not working with the representative of a big set of gears which can chew you up and swallow you whole if things go wrong. OTOH I certainly appreciate the difference between a local cop living where he works vs a big badge just passing thru, trust may be possible over time with the 1st almost certainly not the 2nd.
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Old 08-02-2014, 07:56 PM   #296
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Thought about them as a victim too- our house was robbed a couple years ago. I called them.. they showed up, took a statement, a 2nd pair came by and dusted for prints.. all routine stuff they did their job and left we stayed out of the way- no expectations on either side of further action or resolution, just checking the boxes so the paperwork could be filed... so thats fine.

But I don't see trust here.. I called them they did their job and the paperwork got filed without a hitch- I'd call that a successful interaction.

Guess your definition is different than mine. I trust a mechanic to work on my bike. I trust my accountant to do my taxes. And I trust my doctor to do my prostate exam.

Those cops that came to your house tried to develop a suspect through your statement and gathering of evidence. If they did or if they didn't and in the future one was developed on a similar case warrants would have been applied for. Just cuz the bad guy isn't caught doesn't mean they just checked boxes and filed paperwork.

Of course they coulda been fuck-offs or corrupt assholes. Whatever...
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Old 08-02-2014, 08:18 PM   #297
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I generally agree with your definition of trust-- but with a cop its different. A mechanic might do a bad job and you have to go to another or have him redo it or if things go really bad you have to sue him for damages etc.. but with a cop you're done with the interaction when he (and they) say you are, and in that case my power is proportional to the lawyers I can hire and politicians I can influence.

I'm sure the cops who came and took the burglary report did their job... there was a rash of burglaries in the neighborhood at the time and it was our unlucky day. The 1st cop on the scene told us there was little liklihood of anything further developing in the case given circumstances and I don't doubt it... nothing personal either way, we were done when he said he was finished and that was that.. I have no problems with the interaction and the result.

If he had developed reasonable suspicion of something else afoot I'm sure he would have proceeded differently... or not- he has discretion about what he pursues and its up to him. The mechanic or the doctor can't just impose their will and apply the machine.
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Old 08-02-2014, 08:55 PM   #298
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Guess your definition is different than mine. I trust a mechanic to work on my bike. I trust my accountant to do my taxes. And I trust my doctor to do my prostate exam.

Right, but what happens when you dint feel like your doctor is acting in your best interests? Or your accountant screws your taxes up? You fire them right? How do you fire a cop?

Police are in a unique position, they are the enforcers of the law, they are public servants, but are not directly employed by the public, the laws regarding their conduct are not always clear, and there have been many cases of entire departments being corrupt in one way or another. Oh yeah. They're armed, sometimes heavily armed.
In my dealings with local LEOs, I figure about 99% of the cops I dealt with were fair to me, I still sweat a little any time I have to deal with LE for any thing, even when I'm the victim.

So yeah I can see an us vs them mentally, from both sides of the fence, I spent a fair amount of time pretending to be a cop when I was in the military. (9/11 meant we needed more cops than we had) and the LEOs I worked with were pretty much great, but I was one of them (they trusted me not to shoot them in the back at least) It was never a case of not liking the non-leo community, but you never know what's going to happen on a stop, or a call so you have to be cautious. When the world is divided into "people who are not likely to shoot me" and "people who may well try to shoot me" who are you going to protect, and how far?
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Old 08-03-2014, 05:25 PM   #299
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...snipping long text here...

A small thing: Please don't use colored font, it's damn near impossible to read on a black background. Thanks.
I don't want to interfere with some interesting dialogue here.

I just want to say that if text is hard to read then highlight the text with your mouse as if you were doing a copy and paste. Just highlighting the text makes it more readable and FYFF. See what I mean?!

Carry on and thanks for the reasoned and thoughtful discussion.
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Old 08-03-2014, 05:44 PM   #300
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I don't want to interfere with some interesting dialogue here.

I just want to say that if text is hard to read then highlight the text with your mouse as if you were doing a copy and paste. Just highlighting the text makes it more readable and FYFF. See what I mean?!

Carry on and thanks for the reasoned and thoughtful discussion.


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