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Old 08-05-2014, 05:53 PM   #331
DesertTortoise
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Originally Posted by vecchio Lupo View Post
Tortoise,



My department does not track racial stats. We leave "Race" blank and do not track those numbers. The Feds are another story. I don't have an answer for what State Troopers do with that data. I never gave a warning citation, you were either in the clear or being cited as far as I was concerned. Cameras will change everything, they cut both ways. A hot headed officer with a penchant for bad language will get into trouble fast, a veteran officer that reads the situation as able to diffuse with a stern lecture, is now reluctant to do so, for fear of being second guessed by desk bound superiors. Worse, should that individual commit another offense that hurts or kills another person later that same day, you will be on the carpet, and maybe in court explaining why you let them go with no action taken.

There is a certain way that a mature officer uses interpersonal communication skills (verbal judo) to deescalate a situation that could be used against them in a recording. Not talking about the hot head who escalates the situation. Agree that it could remove discretion and result in a higher level of enforcement or even higher level of force to deescalate if the ability to have a "man to man" conversation is taken away. If being recorded and subject to the Monday morning crowd the officer will have to stick pretty close to the script even if it's not the minimum necessary for that situation.

I've heard and I agree that IPC skills take about 5 years to really develop. I wonder if cameras and "non-lethal" options actually result in less "right answers" for the officers. I see the benefits for all of these in their proper place though.
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Old 08-05-2014, 07:25 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by vecchio Lupo View Post
...If I have to ask you to turn off the radio, you are getting a ticket.
If you start off with why are you stopping me? You are getting a ticket, because you know damn well why I stopped you.
If your paperwork is incomplete, you are getting a ticket.
If you lie, even a little, you are getting a ticket.

Now the good.
If you switch off the engine and the radio, remove your sunglasses and hat so I can see your face, we are off to a great start. When I ask for your license, registration and proof of insurance, you can then say "yes of course, and I'm sorry for (insert offense here) I am usually better than that." If you then say I should know better, my father, uncle, cousin, etc etc is or was a cop and I apologize for the offense...
To me, that sounds like, "Kiss my butt and I'll let you go; give me a hard time and I'll rough you up a little (metaphorically)."

That attitude contributes to the negative perception of LEOs in that it's a very small, subtle - but very real - abuse of authority. Whether one gets a ticket or not should not come down to whether the officer "likes" the person. Friendly, kowtowing, apple-polishers should get the same tickets as crotchety, cantankerous, conspiracy theorists - because they are both just citizens entitled to their own personas.
It's like upon telling your doctor you're going to get a second opinion, he twists the needle around in your arm a little. Some will say, "duh, you should've kept that to yourself." I say he's violating the Hippocratic oath.

If a LEO adopts of a policy of treating one type of person better or worse than another, they are fueling the fire, IMO.... and it works out that people likely to get the worse treatment are the most likely to have that treatment justify their negative opinion.

Now, someone will spin that into "oh, so you think the cops should be friendly and patient when they're being attacked by someone on bath salts?".
No, that's not what I'm saying.
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Old 08-05-2014, 07:33 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by steve68steve View Post
To me, that sounds like, "Kiss my butt and I'll let you go; give me a hard time and I'll rough you up a little (metaphorically)."

That attitude contributes to the negative perception of LEOs in that it's a very small, subtle - but very real - abuse of authority. Whether one gets a ticket or not should not come down to whether the officer "likes" the person. Friendly, kowtowing, apple-polishers should get the same tickets as crotchety, cantankerous, conspiracy theorists - because they are both just citizens entitled to their own personas.
It's like upon telling your doctor you're going to get a second opinion, he twists the needle around in your arm a little. Some will say, "duh, you should've kept that to yourself." I say he's violating the Hippocratic oath.

If a LEO adopts of a policy of treating one type of person better or worse than another, they are fueling the fire, IMO.... and it works out that people likely to get the worse treatment are the most likely to have that treatment justify their negative opinion.

Now, someone will spin that into "oh, so you think the cops should be friendly and patient when they're being attacked by someone on bath salts?".
No, that's not what I'm saying.
Gotta disagree on this one. Showing respect and being professional when you have done something wrong is not "kissing ass",,,, it's called being a man {or if you ain't a man,,,, being honorable}.

Speed, get caught, act like an ass then you get your's. You get more flies with honey than you do with vinegar, simple fact of real life,,,,,, just like the "Us vs Them" attitude. I can understand both behaviors and I can agree with the first since you shouldn't have been breaking the law in the first place.
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Old 08-05-2014, 07:58 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by steve68steve View Post
To me, that sounds like, "Kiss my butt and I'll let you go; give me a hard time and I'll rough you up a little (metaphorically)."

That attitude contributes to the negative perception of LEOs in that it's a very small, subtle - but very real - abuse of authority. Whether one gets a ticket or not should not come down to whether the officer "likes" the person. Friendly, kowtowing, apple-polishers should get the same tickets as crotchety, cantankerous, conspiracy theorists - because they are both just citizens entitled to their own personas.
It's like upon telling your doctor you're going to get a second opinion, he twists the needle around in your arm a little. Some will say, "duh, you should've kept that to yourself." I say he's violating the Hippocratic oath.

If a LEO adopts of a policy of treating one type of person better or worse than another, they are fueling the fire, IMO.... and it works out that people likely to get the worse treatment are the most likely to have that treatment justify their negative opinion.

Now, someone will spin that into "oh, so you think the cops should be friendly and patient when they're being attacked by someone on bath salts?".
No, that's not what I'm saying.
I addressed this earlier, but it's a long thread.

Traffic enforcement is about changing behavior and there are different levels of enforcement. Different situations and people require different approaches.

If I believe just the stop itself will alter your behavior then so be it. These are the people who have their stuff together (shows they care about the law), acknowledge what they did wrong and are civil.

However, if you are immediately defensive, hostile, lie about what you did and/or don't have any of the paperwork you are required by law to carry then I am going to guess that a higher level of enforcement will be necessary to change your behavior.

Is that playing favorites? I don't think so.
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Old 08-05-2014, 08:07 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Jud View Post
Gotta disagree on this one. Showing respect and being professional when you have done something wrong is not "kissing ass",,,, it's called being a man {or if you ain't a man,,,, being honorable}
This.
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Old 08-05-2014, 08:15 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Thanantos View Post
I addressed this earlier, but it's a long thread.

Traffic enforcement is about changing behavior and there are different levels of enforcement. Different situations and people require different approaches.

If I believe just the stop itself will alter your behavior then so be it. These are the people who have their stuff together (shows they care about the law), acknowledge what they did wrong and are civil.

However, if you are immediately defensive, hostile, lie about what you did and/or don't have any of the paperwork you are required by law to carry then I am going to guess that a higher level of enforcement will be necessary to change your behavior.

Is that playing favorites? I don't think so.
So the problem is when one fesses up and still gets cited, they've pretty much blown any chance to dispute the citation in court.
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Old 08-05-2014, 08:23 PM   #337
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So the problem is when one fesses up and still gets cited, they've pretty much blown any chance to dispute the citation in court.
True, but you are guilty. I'm not out there making this stuff up.

AND, based on my anecdotal experience you have less than a 1% chance of winning in court. I give a little less than 50% warnings. What's the smart play?
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Old 08-05-2014, 08:27 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Thanantos View Post
True, but you are guilty. I'm not out there making this stuff up.

AND, based on my anecdotal experience you have less than a 1% chance of winning in court. I give a little less than 50% warnings. What's the smart play?
Point taken.
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Old 08-05-2014, 11:44 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by DesertTortoise View Post
Two questions for you or other municipal LEOs.... I've heard that officers can give less warnings due to keeping stats for racial profiling. Reasoning is they have to show that one racial group isn't given more tickets than another. Is this true in departments that you know of?

We are starting to use on-officer cameras in the military (camera worn on the vest). Are state / local LEOs using these and what impact are they having?
More civilized interactions between officers and the folks they contact. More complaints resolved because the citizen who complains gets to see self on camera and how they interacted with the officer (drunk/high/angry) and what was really said. Officers are better at maintaining professional demeanor. Suspects plea guilty after they (and their attorney) see what occurred during the course of an on-view violation.

We just had a short pilot evaluation of body worn cameras and we expect to deploy cameras to all of our patrol division officers (52) as well as the motor officers (6) over the next 2 years.

Everyone else has video, why shouldn't we?
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Old 08-05-2014, 11:51 PM   #340
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More civilized interactions between officers and the folks they contact. More complaints resolved because the citizen who complains gets to see self on camera and how they interacted with the officer (drunk/high/angry) and what was really said. Officers are better at maintaining professional demeanor. Suspects plea guilty after they (and their attorney) see what occurred during the course of an on-view violation.

We just had a short pilot evaluation of body worn cameras and we expect to deploy cameras to all of our patrol division officers (52) as well as the motor officers (6) over the next 2 years.

Everyone else has video, why shouldn't we?
dashcam vids have been around looooong before the recent dramatic rise in copwatching.

But yes, by all means, roll the tape.
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Old 08-05-2014, 11:51 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by WillieJ View Post
More civilized interactions between officers and the folks they contact. More complaints resolved because the citizen who complains gets to see self on camera and how they interacted with the officer (drunk/high/angry) and what was really said. Officers are better at maintaining professional demeanor. Suspects plea guilty after they (and their attorney) see what occurred during the course of an on-view violation.

We just had a short pilot evaluation of body worn cameras and we expect to deploy cameras to all of our patrol division officers (52) as well as the motor officers (6) over the next 2 years.

Everyone else has video, why shouldn't we?
I'm all for it.

Cameras everywhere are a lot like everyone being armed,,,, both makes for more courteous folk. M.A.D.D. baby!!!
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Old 08-06-2014, 03:26 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by WillieJ View Post
More civilized interactions between officers and the folks they contact. More complaints resolved because the citizen who complains gets to see self on camera and how they interacted with the officer (drunk/high/angry) and what was really said. Officers are better at maintaining professional demeanor. Suspects plea guilty after they (and their attorney) see what occurred during the course of an on-view violation.

We just had a short pilot evaluation of body worn cameras and we expect to deploy cameras to all of our patrol division officers (52) as well as the motor officers (6) over the next 2 years.

Everyone else has video, why shouldn't we?
As long as you are not in one of the areas that is trying to make it illegal to video tape police officers then I am all for it. I have encountered far fewer unprofessional officers since the advent of dash cams, and wearable cams are only going to continue that trend.
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Old 08-06-2014, 03:28 AM   #343
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True, but you are guilty. I'm not out there making this stuff up.

AND, based on my anecdotal experience you have less than a 1% chance of winning in court. I give a little less than 50% warnings. What's the smart play?
Get a lawyer? I actually don't have an issue paying my fines, it's the automatic suspension I can't deal with, I work too far away from my home to lose my license for 30 days. But none of that is the officer's fault, he's just doing his job. I do feel that it is in my best interest to playby the rules, if that means I get to have a lawyer, then you had better believe I'm getting one.
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Old 08-06-2014, 04:36 AM   #344
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When we had our court date due to our naughty cop there were probably 20 others in there at various stages of their proceedings, lots of more serious traffic stuff. We were the only people with a lawyer present and we opted for a flesh eater, I think it likely affected the DA's willingness to not pursue matters more aggressively... those other folks it was like lambs to the slaughter. Hyperbole aside, it absolutely reduced our stress level since he was in there according to plan, helped get us in and out.. no drama. Not that lawyers are great and wonderful either but the machine has its own agenda and since we're not in it we have no clue how to influence the outcome.

Definitely get a lawyer as soon as its more than something trivial, even if it costs more than the ticket does.


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Old 08-06-2014, 07:10 AM   #345
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Get a lawyer? I actually don't have an issue paying my fines, it's the automatic suspension I can't deal with, I work too far away from my home to lose my license for 30 days. But none of that is the officer's fault, he's just doing his job. I do feel that it is in my best interest to playby the rules, if that means I get to have a lawyer, then you had better believe I'm getting one.




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When we had our court date due to our naughty cop there were probably 20 others in there at various stages of their proceedings, lots of more serious traffic stuff. We were the only people with a lawyer present and we opted for a flesh eater, I think it likely affected the DA's willingness to not pursue matters more aggressively... those other folks it was like lambs to the slaughter. Hyperbole aside, it absolutely reduced our stress level since he was in there according to plan, helped get us in and out.. no drama. Not that lawyers are great and wonderful either but the machine has its own agenda and since we're not in it we have no clue how to influence the outcome.

Definitely get a lawyer as soon as its more than something trivial, even if it costs more than the ticket does.


I've heard crazy things about how this works in other areas, but all I can do is speak to what I know....how it works here.

And that is that the officer decides what happens with the ticket, not the prosecutor. No prosecutor around here would ever drop a ticket or even lessen the offense without the officers permission.

So you can hire a lawyer. I wouldn't ever tell anyone not to, but I've also never seen an instance where it helped the person.

My advice would be to try to find someone in your area who has been through it already.
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