ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > The perfect line and other riding myths
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 07-29-2014, 07:34 PM   #181
JohnCW
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2013
Location: Sydney, Australia
Oddometer: 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota View Post
if something happens in a corner (kid runs out, animal runs out, car in front of you stops for no apparent reason, etc.), you are going to have to brake in a corner regardless of you experience level.
And sometimes just getting down the road.....



Turning left in the lane to the very left of the picture and faced with a Give Way sign, and a car is coming through from the right which hasn't been see till late because of the traffic waiting at the lights. What's the advice, comply with the Give Way sign by braking while turning to pull up at the white line indicated on the road at the very apex of the corner, or because applying the brakes in a curve is dangerous continue through the Give Way sign without stopping.


JohnCW screwed with this post 07-29-2014 at 08:34 PM
JohnCW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2014, 09:32 PM   #182
Rgconner
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Mar 2014
Oddometer: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
Please go away and brush up on your reading comprehension.


I'd spell it out for you but I already have, several times, and you've failed. Try this...http://www.rong-chang.com/nse/ it'll help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
And sometimes just getting down the road.....


Turning left in the lane to the very left of the picture and faced with a Give Way sign, and a car is coming through from the right which hasn't been see till late because of the traffic waiting at the lights. What's the advice, comply with the Give Way sign by braking while turning to pull up at the white line indicated on the road at the very apex of the corner, or because applying the brakes in a curve is dangerous continue through the Give Way sign without stopping.
Please, don't insult our intelligence.

If you are going fast enough to need to use trail braking to compress your front end to get better turn radius in a complex urban area....

SLOW THE FUCK DOWN.
__________________
Bikes are like rocket science... except we try to avoid the coming back down part.
Rgconner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2014, 11:47 PM   #183
JohnCW
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2013
Location: Sydney, Australia
Oddometer: 937
Anyone with an open mind would clearly see I'm just giving example of where everyone must uses their brakes when turning everyday, in everyday situations. I fully recognize there is clearly nothing I could say, no pictures, or diagrams that will convince some people they do use their brakes in corners, whether they are aware of it on not. The only way anyone can ride a motorcycle and NEVER use the brakes in ANY corner, under ANY circumstances, is to only ever ride in a perfectly straight line. Please remember to wave as you pass Australia.

Just one more before I go, in this extreme situation I would use an appropriate gear to control my speed in the 'straights', braking before each corner and maintaining that braking right the way through every corner from start to finish. Engine and gearing to control speed on the straights, brakes in the corners and holding that braking all the way around. Anyone who says they would be or feel safer going around each corner with no brakes, good-luck.


JohnCW screwed with this post 07-30-2014 at 04:49 AM
JohnCW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2014, 11:54 PM   #184
catweasel67
Banned
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Vienna, Austria
Oddometer: 8,104
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
Anyone with an open mind would clearly see I'm just giving example of where everyone must uses their brakes when turning everyday, in everyday situations. I fully recognize there is clearly nothing I could say, no pictures, or diagrams that will convince some people they do use their brakes in corners, whether they are aware of it on not. The only way anyone can ride a motorcycle and NEVER use the brakes in ANY corner, under ANY circumstances, is to only ever ride in a perfectly straight line. Please member to wave as you pass Australia.

Just one more before I go, in this extreme situation I would use an appropriate gear to control my speed in the 'straights', braking before each corner and maintaining that braking right the way through every corner from start to finish. Engine and gearing to control speed on the straights, brakes in the corners. Anyone who says they would be safer going around each corner with no brakes, good-luck.

Yes, because newbs with just a few days or weeks experience are gonna be on this road...and, even if they are...I suspect braking will be the least of their short-lived worries
catweasel67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2014, 12:01 AM   #185
JohnCW
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2013
Location: Sydney, Australia
Oddometer: 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
Yes, because newbs with just a few days or weeks experience are gonna be on this road...and, even if they are...I suspect braking will be the least of their short-lived worries
Is this the picture your referring to where a newbie never has to be concerned with braking while turning???: Any pedestrian who steps onto the crossings if your doing a right hand turn, just run em down!!!!!


JohnCW screwed with this post 07-30-2014 at 12:08 AM
JohnCW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2014, 12:09 AM   #186
catweasel67
Banned
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Vienna, Austria
Oddometer: 8,104
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
Is this the picture your referring to where a newbie never has to be concerned with braking while turning???:

You consider this to be a "twisty"?

I ask because one second we're talking about newbs riding twisties with diminishing radii and unseen hazards such as oncoming cages, trees across the road around the next hidden bend...and then you post this...

Just how quick is your hypothetical newbie going for the braking they're taught at basic riding school to be inadequate for this corner?

Get a grip John, come back to the real world!!
catweasel67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2014, 12:14 AM   #187
JohnCW
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2013
Location: Sydney, Australia
Oddometer: 937
The current point is everyone has to and does brake in corners, and have sufficient control to do so under both normal and emergency situations. I definitely should have quit this thread yesterday.

JohnCW screwed with this post 07-30-2014 at 12:21 AM
JohnCW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2014, 12:22 AM   #188
catweasel67
Banned
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Vienna, Austria
Oddometer: 8,104
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
The current point is everyone has to and does brake in corner, I definitely should have quit this thread yesterday.
Well, yes, but let me ask you a question..

Are you seriously suggesting that you, in the junction pictured, don't do any braking until you're actually in the turn?

If that's the case then you're a hazard to yourself and to others.

Most folk, having seen the red lights/junction up ahead, would have started to scrub off speed long before the turn/junction, with the bike bolt upright. Any last minute braking, in the turn, would have been done at such low speeds the bike would have practically been upright anyway.


But you knew that, because you're not stupid.
catweasel67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2014, 12:30 AM   #189
JohnCW
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Dec 2013
Location: Sydney, Australia
Oddometer: 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
Well, yes, but let me ask you a question..

Are you seriously suggesting that you, in the junction pictured, don't do any braking until you're actually in the turn?
Let me answer it with question.... Are you seriously suggesting that I, or even anyone, in the nearly 500 posts, plus all the referenced articles, etc, that make up this thread has said, hinted, or even vaguely implied "not to do any braking until you're actually in the turn"?

You really don't need to answer because as was stated several posts back it is totally impossible to have any intelligent discussion.

JohnCW screwed with this post 07-30-2014 at 12:42 AM
JohnCW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2014, 12:49 AM   #190
catweasel67
Banned
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Vienna, Austria
Oddometer: 8,104
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
Let me answer it with question.... Are you seriously suggestion that a single person in the nearly 500 posts, plus all the referenced articles, etc, that make up this thread has said, hinted, or even vaguely implied "not to do any braking until you're actually in the turn"?

You really don't need to answer because as was stated several posts back it is totally impossible to have any intelligent discussion.
So let's bring back it back to the intelligent point eh? Just be aware it's repeating something I've said more than once in this thread....

I am against the teaching of trail-braking/mid-turn emergency stops at speed to newbies because I do not believe they, the newbs, have the necessary experience or sensitivity and if you tell them they don't have to brake/scrub speed until they're in the turn then that's what they're (some of them at least) gonna do - not to mention the amount of training course crashes that'll occur. The message should be simple, and clear - slow in, fast out. Scrub the speed before the turn.

Talk about hazards that one can encounter in turns, and emphasise that's why speed is scrubbed off pre-turn. Talk about how training doesn't end with the end of the course. Talk about other training courses. But don't have unrealistic expectations and don't make it practically impossible, not to mention expensive, for newbs to learn to ride.
catweasel67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2014, 04:11 AM   #191
steve68steve
Gnarly Adventurer
 
steve68steve's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Lehigh Valley, PA
Oddometer: 493
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZiaThunder View Post
The new MSF BRC that is starting to roll out, no longer focuses on getting all your braking done while straight up and before you tip into the turn.

Now as a RiderCoach, I liked since it meant less people falling down in class. Howev... I know it's just wrong. It took me years to over come the MSF teachings ...

What it all comes down to is that motorcycles aren't really for everyone.
Quoted again for Catweasel.
__________________
Steve

'12 Glee
steve68steve is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2014, 07:31 AM   #192
Moronic
Beastly Adventurer
 
Moronic's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2006
Location: Perth, Australia
Oddometer: 1,525
Interesting thread guys and gals, and fun to take part in.

A couple of thoughts:

I'd love it if JohnCW could make his points without needing them to be winners.

I think Ienatsch needs interpretation. He knows what he is talking about, but he is arguing against certain things in both Pace articles and those things differ. Pace 1 is about easing off on the straights. Pace 2 is about acknowledging that brakes going in can still be helpful (and sometimes essential), and and needs to be understood as an adjustment of Pace 1 principally.

Ienatsch defines trail- braking as using some (ie any) brake going in.

Newbs need to know that braking in turns is about fine adjustment principally, and emergency response if you are faced with something you could not reasonably have predicted.

If the emergency is your own failure to prepare for where the road might go beyond your sight line you have really fucked up.

If you are braking hard in turns just to meet your own guess at where the road might go beyond your sight line then you have little left for emergencies.

Are these points controversial? Ok my suggestion to John is somewhat confrontational but John, I don't aim to offend.
__________________
Sorting out the S4Rs Ohlins shock: click here.
Moronic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2014, 07:40 AM   #193
Human Ills
Useful Idiom
 
Human Ills's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2008
Location: South (Dog help me) Bay
Oddometer: 22,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
Let me answer it with question.... Are you seriously suggesting that I, or even anyone, in the nearly 500 posts, plus all the referenced articles, etc, that make up this thread has said, hinted, or even vaguely implied "not to do any braking until you're actually in the turn"?

You really don't need to answer because as was stated several posts back it is totally impossible to have any intelligent discussion.
Stop feeding the troll. Please.
__________________
that guy is in for an awakening from people who will ride all dammed day for a sandwich-eatpasta
Human Ills is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2014, 07:55 AM   #194
ZiaThunder
Go big or go home
 
ZiaThunder's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2012
Location: NM
Oddometer: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moronic View Post
Interesting thread guys and gals, and fun to take part in.

A couple of thoughts:

I'd love it if JohnCW could make his points without needing them to be winners.

I think Ienatsch needs interpretation. He knows what he is talking about, but he is arguing against certain things in both Pace articles and those things differ. Pace 1 is about easing off on the straights. Pace 2 is about acknowledging that brakes going in can still be helpful (and sometimes essential), and and needs to be understood as an adjustment of Pace 1 principally.

Ienatsch defines trail- braking as using some (ie any) brake going in.

Newbs need to know that braking in turns is about fine adjustment principally, and emergency response if you are faced with something you could not reasonably have predicted.

If the emergency is your own failure to prepare for where the road might go beyond your sight line you have really fucked up.

If you are braking hard in turns just to meet your own guess at where the road might go beyond your sight line then you have little left for emergencies.

Are these points controversial? Ok my suggestion to John is somewhat confrontational but John, I don't aim to offend.
Great explaination!
ZiaThunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2014, 08:42 AM   #195
LittleRedToyota
Yinzer
 
LittleRedToyota's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2011
Location: Pittsburgh
Oddometer: 2,224
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
Let me answer it with question.... Are you seriously suggesting that I, or even anyone, in the nearly 500 posts, plus all the referenced articles, etc, that make up this thread has said, hinted, or even vaguely implied "not to do any braking until you're actually in the turn"?
whenever catweasel does not have a viable counter-argument to something someone says, he insinuates they said something completely different from what they actually said and argues against that point instead. (and, when you call him on it, as you did, he ignores it.)

it's standard operating procedure for him.

in this case, you said "sometimes you have to brake in corners". he can't refute that, so he pretends you said "you should only ever brake in corners" and argues against that instead.

it's absurd, frankly.
__________________
2009 KTM 450 xc-w (plated)
2009 DRZ400s
LittleRedToyota is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 05:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014