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Old 07-30-2014, 06:46 PM   #211
steve68steve
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota View Post
whenever catweasel does not have a viable counter-argument to something someone says, he insinuates they said something completely different from what they actually said and argues against that point instead. (and, when you call him on it, as you did, he ignores it.)

in this case, you said "sometimes you have to brake in corners". he can't refute that, so he pretends you said "you should only ever brake in corners" and argues against that instead.

it's absurd, frankly.
Actually, it's an informal logical fallacy called the "straw man", among other names.

It's especially disappointing because it means the wielder is either an idiot (can't grasp the premise), or is just being a dickhead (can't refute the actual premise but won't just concede the point).

In either case, you can't really have a discussion.

CW isn't the only one here doing it...
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Old 07-31-2014, 12:54 AM   #212
catweasel67
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Originally Posted by steve68steve View Post
Actually, it's an informal logical fallacy called the "straw man", among other names.

It's especially disappointing because it means the wielder is either an idiot (can't grasp the premise), or is just being a dickhead (can't refute the actual premise but won't just concede the point).

In either case, you can't really have a discussion.

CW isn't the only one here doing it...
Just out of interest, what concept is it that you think I'm failing to grasp?
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Old 07-31-2014, 05:00 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
Just out of interest, what concept is it that you think I'm failing to grasp?
Lol!

The concept of advancing a premise without resorting to strawmen, appeals to authority, or personal attacks; and by refuting valid counter-arguments.
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Old 07-31-2014, 05:37 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by B.Curvin View Post


Oh oh oh. I do. I've been doing it on the street AND dirt for more than 30 years. I've never tucked the front on the street. I trail brake every ride, every day.
Same here, trail braked for 45 years without even the slightest hint of a problem. Actually I did tuck the wheel under 43 years ago, only off I ever had on a road bike. Riding at little more than a walking pace in a dead straight line up the shoulder of the road (to get around the traffic jam). Had to execute a panic stop, grabbed a handful of front brake, wheel locked, and slid out on the loose gravel on the shoulder of the road.

Lesson learned 43 years ago: grabbing at the brakes regardless or whether your leaned over or straight up is dangerous regardless of the speed your travelling.
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Old 07-31-2014, 05:40 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by steve68steve View Post
Lol!

The concept of advancing a premise without resorting to strawmen, appeals to authority, or personal attacks; and by refuting valid counter-arguments.
Hmm, I see that I need to re-phrase my question for the hard of thinking.....

What concept, or premise, or idea, contained in this thread, is that it that you think I failed to understand, or grasp?


I ask because, as per your claim "CW isn't the only one doing it"...and you did it whilst calling me either a "dickhead" or an "idiot"....oh, aren't they "personal attacks"? Or are you exempt from your own accusation?

So....once more, with subtitles...

Which bit of the question "Should emergency braking mid-turn be made mandatory for newbs?" do you think I failed to grasp to such a degree that I had to either shift the basis of the argument, or appeal to authority?

And now, with "subtitles"...

Which bit of the question "Should emergency braking mid-turn be made mandatory for newbs?" do you think I failed to grasp to such a degree that I had to either shift the basis of the argument, or appeal to authority?


Some posters think it should not be mandatory, and have explained why (myself included). Some think it should be mandatory and have explained why (John and a few others).

More than a few have posted non-related anecdotes about how they park, or ago around corners, or how they think they're trail-braking when they've covering or vice-versa and a few others keep referencing Ienatsch (sp?), Keith Code, or the MSF without actually answering the question and some keep waffling on about how those who disagree with them must be trolling, creating strawman arguments or resorting to personal attacks....like "dickhead" or "idiot"..for example..
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Old 07-31-2014, 05:42 AM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B.Curvin View Post




Oh oh oh. I do. I've been doing it on the street AND dirt for more than 30 years. I've never tucked the front on the street. I trail brake every ride, every day.

Well now..

1. 'I ride home totally wasted every day and I've never killed myself, that proves it's totally safe, right?'

2. You've been riding for 30 years. You are therefore clearly not a novice trying to learn braking finesse...

3. Never? Really? So you've never hit an unexpected slick spot while loading up the front tyre & lent over on the brakes? Or found that patch of sand that matches the road surface? I call BS...
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Old 07-31-2014, 05:54 AM   #217
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Same here, trail braked for 45 years without even the slightest hint of a problem. Actually I did tuck the wheel under 43 years ago, only off I ever had on a road bike. Riding at little more than a walking pace in a dead straight line up the shoulder of the road (to get around the traffic jam). Had to execute a panic stop, grabbed a handful of front brake, wheel locked, and slid out on the loose gravel on the shoulder of the road.

Lesson learned 43 years ago: grabbing at the brakes regardless or whether your leaned over or straight up is dangerous regardless of the speed your travelling.
Actually, the above is a little incomplete. A couple of moths ago I nearly tucked the front wheel under doing a near full lock very slow U turn putting the bike away in the garage. Touched the front brake and it locked because of the near full lock slow speed. But the good news was I was able to save dropping the bike, but it was close.

Lesson: Don't even touch the front brake in hard lock slow turns in parking lots. I can understand why those learner riders have a lot of difficulty trying to do walking pace hard lock turns if they have to use the front brake. Probably the fastest way to put a bike down that I can think of.

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Old 07-31-2014, 07:54 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
What concept, or premise, or idea, contained in this thread, is that it that you think I failed to understand, or grasp?
several times, posters have stated that, when riding on the street, you do sometimes have to brake in corners.

you respond to those statements by insinuating that those posters claim that you should always brake in every corner. you even responded to such a statement once by insinuating the poster said he never brakes before corners...only in corners.

of course, neither of those statements is even remotely close to "sometime on the street you have to brake while cornering."

here are some examples for you:

i posted "you would not get very far in the real world without crashing if you never braked in corners on the street..."

you replied "So you go around every corner hard on the brakes eh?"

you will notice that i never said anything like *every* corner. nor did i say anything about braking *hard*. you could not refute my point, so you pretended i said something completely different and argued against that instead.

when i called you on it, you went off on trail braking, claiming i had said that trail braking was necessary skill for newbies, even though i had never said a single thing about trail braking at all.

then john posted:

"The current point is everyone has to and does brake in corner"

you can't refute that, so you responded by implying that john said he doesn't do any braking until he gets into the corner:

"Are you seriously suggesting that you, in the junction pictured, don't do any braking until you're actually in the turn?"

of course, john never said anything even remotely close to "i don't do any braking until i'm actually in the turn". all he said, repeatedly and very clearly, that sometimes you do have to brake in corners on the street.


now...onto your question:

Quote:
"Should emergency braking mid-turn be made mandatory for newbs?"
give that it is a FACT that, in the real world on the street, you do SOMETIMES have to brake in corners (don't even bother trying to retort by turning that into anything like "you always brake in every corner" or "you only ever brake in corners" or any other BS like that), yes, braking in corners should be taught to newbs.

what if they get out on the street and have to brake in a corner?

btw, the MFS actually does teach braking in corners, so they are not denying that you sometimes do have to brake in corners--regardless of whether you are a newb or have been riding since motorcycles were invented. but, they teach a method (first stand the bike up and then brake) that often doesn't actually work in the real world--since there is not enough space before running off the edge of the road.
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Old 07-31-2014, 08:02 AM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota View Post
several times, posters have stated that, when riding on the street, you do sometimes have to brake in corners.

you respond to those statements by insinuating that those posters claim that you should always brake in every corner. you even responded to such a statement once by insinuating the poster said he never brakes before corners...only in corners.

of course, neither of those statements is even remotely close to "sometime on the street you have to brake while cornering."

here are some examples for you:

i posted "you would not get very far in the real world without crashing if you never braked in corners on the street..."

you replied "So you go around every corner hard on the brakes eh?"

you will notice that i never said anything like *every* corner. nor did i say anything about braking *hard*. you could not refute my point, so you pretended i said something completely different and argued against that instead.

when i called you on it, you went off on trail braking, claiming i had said that trail braking was necessary skill for newbies, even though i had never said a single thing about trail braking at all.

then john posted:

"The current point is everyone has to and does brake in corner"

you can't refute that, so you responded by implying that john said he doesn't do any braking until he gets into the corner:

"Are you seriously suggesting that you, in the junction pictured, don't do any braking until you're actually in the turn?"

of course, john never said anything even remotely close to "i don't do any braking until i'm actually in the turn". all he said, repeatedly and very clearly, that sometimes you do have to brake in corners on the street.


now...onto your question:



give that it is a FACT that, in the real world on the street, you do SOMETIMES have to brake in corners (don't even bother trying to retort by turning that into anything like "you always brake in every corner" or "you only ever brake in corners" or any other BS like that), yes, braking in corners should be taught to newbs.

what if they get out on the street and have to brake in a corner?

btw, the MFS actually does teach braking in corners, so they are not denying that you sometimes do have to brake in corners--regardless of whether you are a newb or have been riding since motorcycles were invented. but, they teach a method (first stand the bike up and then brake) that often doesn't actually work in the real world--since there is not enough space before running off the edge of the road.
So I take it that's your way of saying "yes, emergency braking mid turn should be mandatory training for newbs"? I hope they've got awesome insurance.

As for my comment to you, you see that punctuation mark at the end of my statement? That's called a "question mark".

And as for John, well done taking my comment out of context! Bravo!
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Old 07-31-2014, 08:18 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
As for my comment to you, you see that punctuation mark at the end of my statement? That's called a "question mark".
it was a rhetorical question with an implication that had nothing to do with what i actually said. if you put a question mark at the end of an implications, it is still an implication.

and you did exactly the same thing to john...just reworded what he said with yet another rhetorical question that implied he said something completely different from what he said.

you were clearly attempting to change the subject in both cases (that is a nice way of saying you were pulling the straw man bullshit john already called you on). stop being disingenuous.

Quote:
So I take it that's your way of saying "yes, emergency braking mid turn should be mandatory training for newbs"? I hope they've got awesome insurance.
so, what exactly do you propose a newbie do if a car suddenly stops in front of him in mid-turn? or a kid or an animal runs out into the street in front of him in mid-turn? (hint: if they cannot brake, they're going to need that awesome insurance.)
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Old 07-31-2014, 08:52 AM   #221
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Old 07-31-2014, 10:51 AM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwh View Post
Well now..

1. 'I ride home totally wasted every day and I've never killed myself, that proves it's totally safe, right?'

2. You've been riding for 30 years. You are therefore clearly not a novice trying to learn braking finesse...

3. Never? Really? So you've never hit an unexpected slick spot while loading up the front tyre & lent over on the brakes? Or found that patch of sand that matches the road surface? I call BS...

You can call BS if you like. I've tucked the front on pavement once. I was road racing at the time so these things happen.





On the street, never.
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Old 07-31-2014, 03:59 PM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
...What concept, or premise, or idea, contained in this thread, is that it that you think I failed to understand, or grasp?

Which bit of the question "Should emergency braking mid-turn be made mandatory for newbs?" do you think I failed to grasp to such a degree that I had to either shift the basis of the argument, or appeal to authority
OMG, LOL!!

You really don't even realize that you do it, do you? No one has accused you of failing to grasp the OP's QUESTION... but you pose, "which bit of the question do you think I failed to understand?" as tho that's what the accusation was. Read all the stuff that's been actually been said about your strawman posts and respond to THAT specifically instead of re-crafting the accusation into a ridiculous red herring. The very argument you make to defend your use of straw men is a freakin' straw man!! Still LOL!

I agree the words "idiot" and "dickhead" might be too strong - it was early for me. How about "have a mental block" and "being intentionally obtuse and obstructive."? Now, either you don't realize you DO this, because you have a mental block, or you're being intentionally obtuse and obstructive which is - conversationally - rude.
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Old 07-31-2014, 04:12 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
Just out of interest, what concept is it that you think I'm failing to grasp?
Again: you fail to grasp the concept of logic.

Allow me to distill your "arguments" - I'm not re-reading this trainwreck, so forgive my errant memory:

1. The MSF teaches it, so it must be right (appeal to authority).
...but they're changing their teaching and even a rider coach has said this is an obstacle. This point was made and re-made to you and didn't refute it, only ignored it.

2. It's not needed on EVERY corner, therefor it's not needed to learn before riding street. (fallacy of composition - or maybe the inverse).
... this is so illogical on the face of it, no more needs to be said: "if you don't need it all of the time, you don't need it some of time."

3. It's dangerous - noobs will crash. (ok, an actual assertion for a change)
...but it's been pointed out that Hurt report has the #1 single vehicle crash running off the road, which is CAUSED by the MSF's teachings. That implies it's at least AS dangerous to not teach it than to teach it. You also never refuted this.

4. But noobs don't have the skill to do an "advanced technique".
...If this logic holds, then they don't have the skill to stand it up to brake or lean more, either. You never refuted this.

5. Braking in a turn is an "advanced technique".
... Is it? At legal speeds and leans angles, there is often a LOT of available traction not being used. This point has also been made several times here and not refuted. Many are doing it routinely with no issues. Could it be that the MSF has brainwashed people into thinking it's more dangerous than it is?

6. If you teach someone a technique that works in a race setting, they will automatically ride like maniacs with absolute disregard to safety. Teach them trail braking and they'll hit every corner at wreckless speed and on the brakes HARD.
...(straw man/ false dichotomy) This is a big mental block for many who think trail braking should be "left on the track." They can't imagine a sane person doing it at shallow lean angles and safe speeds.... or maybe, see #5.

Honestly, it looks like your idea of "debate" involves a lot of re-casting or outright ignoring counter-arguments, while employing minimal amounts of (specious) logic. A "gotcha" may feel like a "win" to you, but when you're smugly directing it at arguments people are NOT making, it falls flat. It's tiring.
If you don't see that you're doing that, you have a mental block. If you're doing it on purpose for the lulz, why are you being such a dickhead? Those are the only two possibilities I see.

OK, I'm really done. I don't know how to be make my thinking more plain or better understood. If you don't "get it," we just have a communication block between us. I am very logic-based. Maybe you are more belief/emotion based. If so, we will never be able to agree.
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Old 07-31-2014, 08:00 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by B.Curvin View Post
You can call BS if you like. I've tucked the front on pavement once. I was road racing at the time so these things happen.





On the street, never.
Nice pictures, and highlight a very good point. The way some people talk you'd think this is exactly what it going to happen to a beginner rider if they carry some braking into a corner. This fills beginner's heads with unnecessary fear and makes them terrified to use the brakes in a controlled manner when needed. It simply isn't going to happen at the speeds they should be riding on a suitable motorcycle with modern good condition radial tires. They are far more likely to have this happen by panic uncontrolled grabbing of the brakes.

The advice to a beginner rider that they should respond to the panic they experience when confronted by an unexpected reducing radius corner (a rider with supposedly not enough skill to apply controlled braking) to first stand the bike up and then brake is so absurd as to be nearly laughable. Such advice will likely send them into the guard rail if they are lucky enough to be on the outside of the curve, or worse straight onto the wrong side of the road and oncoming traffic if they are on the inside of the corner.

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