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Old 07-24-2014, 01:48 PM   #46
Rgconner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota View Post
yeah, that is EXACTLY what i said.
Red, why you feeding the troll?
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Old 07-24-2014, 02:15 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Rgconner View Post
Red, why you feeding the troll?
that's a good question, actually.

sometimes, i just can't help myself...
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Old 07-24-2014, 02:20 PM   #48
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There is no universal truth here. Why is this so difficult to grasp? Bikes are different, corners are different, conditions are different, skillsets are different.

What is best for one person on one bike in a particular corner under particular conditions may well not be best on a different bike, or different tires. Etc etcetc
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Old 07-24-2014, 02:21 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by LittleRedToyota View Post
that's a good question, actually.

sometimes, i just can't help myself...
Me either. And apparently he likes to get tied in knots too, so no point in rope-a-doping him.
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Old 07-24-2014, 03:14 PM   #50
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MSF (and others) teach to do all braking before turning. I assume the reasoning is that while leaned, some of your traction is being used for turning.
...but not ALL of it. And ironically, I see people talking about engine braking and rolling on throttle while leaned - but those use traction, too. Why are they not so taboo and verboten?

I won't argue that braking before turning is not a better, safer practice - and it's what I endeavor to do. But if the need arises, I'll brake while leaned with no drama. I practice it. Running wide or crashing because you're superstitious about getting on the brakes while you still have a bunch of available traction is not "safer".

If you exceed the available traction, you're in trouble - so don't. But don't crash while leaving a bunch on the table, either.
You just said a mouthful right there, my man. Well put.
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Old 07-24-2014, 04:07 PM   #51
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To clarify, I'm NOT talking about "trail braking." I'm talking about a progressive squeeze of the front brake - as you would while straight up - but doing that while you're turning. To some that's heresy - it goes against everything you've ever been taught. "Surely the front wheel will tuck under and I'll go down in millisecond." No, not if you don't use up all your traction - it's just braking.

Someone said they think people's ignorance/ fear of turned braking has put riders off the road and in coffins. I agree. I ran wide a few times early in my riding career because it was drilled into my head by MSF (and online forae) that braking IS NOT AN OPTION. That's just not true... and someday your life may depend on it. Go practice it someplace safe. Don't stab the brakes or try an emergency stop the first time you practice.
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Old 07-24-2014, 04:46 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by steve68steve View Post
To clarify, I'm NOT talking about "trail braking." I'm talking about a progressive squeeze of the front brake - as you would while straight up - but doing that while you're turning. To some that's heresy - it goes against everything you've ever been taught. "Surely the front wheel will tuck under and I'll go down in millisecond." No, not if you don't use up all your traction - it's just braking.

Someone said they think people's ignorance/ fear of turned braking has put riders off the road and in coffins. I agree. I ran wide a few times early in my riding career because it was drilled into my head by MSF (and online forae) that braking IS NOT AN OPTION. That's just not true... and someday your life may depend on it. Go practice it someplace safe. Don't stab the brakes or try an emergency stop the first time you practice.
yep.

there are a couple stop signs around here that are right at the end of bends in the road. if you couldn't brake while turning, you could not stop at them...

and that isn't even considering the situation like a kid or animal running out into the road while you are going around a corner/curve.

if you ride on the street much at all, eventually you will need to brake while cornering. not trail braking, but just plain braking while cornering.
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Old 07-24-2014, 05:43 PM   #53
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I practice everyday. I'm at 80mph when I reach the red arrow at the bridge. On the brakes and down to 45/46mph by the time I transition back on the throttle at the green dash. Up to 49/52mph when I once again get on the brakes for the light. Six days a week. My goal is to stay above 50mph start to finish.



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Old 07-24-2014, 05:55 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by steve68steve View Post
To clarify, I'm NOT talking about "trail braking." I'm talking about a progressive squeeze of the front brake - as you would while straight up - but doing that while you're turning. To some that's heresy - it goes against everything you've ever been taught. "Surely the front wheel will tuck under and I'll go down in millisecond." No, not if you don't use up all your traction - it's just braking.

Someone said they think people's ignorance/ fear of turned braking has put riders off the road and in coffins. I agree. I ran wide a few times early in my riding career because it was drilled into my head by MSF (and online forae) that braking IS NOT AN OPTION. That's just not true... and someday your life may depend on it. Go practice it someplace safe. Don't stab the brakes or try an emergency stop the first time you practice.

Uhhh.... I'm kinda having trouble seeing any real difference between "trail braking" and "plain braking while turning". True, trail braking happens before the apex and involves a progressive release of the front brake as lean angle increases. Plain braking could happen anywhere in a turn. As I see it, the skill to be learned is that your front brake pressure needs to reflect lean angle. Both throttle and brake need to be finessed very gently at the high lean angles involved in track days or racing. At a typical street pace and lean angles you can get away with quite a lot of braking (or throttle) while cornering if you keep it smooth. Keeping two fingers on the front brake lever when riding twisties helps me avoid "grabbing" with four fingers and having a big sudden input.
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Old 07-24-2014, 06:21 PM   #55
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Uhhh.... I'm kinda having trouble seeing any real difference between "trail braking" and "plain braking while turning". ... At a typical street pace and lean angles you can get away with quite a lot of braking (or throttle) while cornering if you keep it smooth....
To my mind, trail braking seems less scary than initiating a hard-ish braking event while already leaned and turning. In the former, what you're doing is a smooth part of the turning process, and you're making a traction "deposit". In the latter, you're making a traction "withdrawal", AND changing dynamics mid-stream (lean angle, front/back weight transfer, etc.). So if you can manage the latter, the former is sort of, well, 'nothing' really. I don't understand why it gets so much hype as "advanced technique" and "save it for the track."

I want to stress the "typical street pace and lean angles" - that's where I ride. That's the situation I need to cope with when things go wrong. So the fact that I have "quite a lot of braking" available if I "keep it smooth" is a pretty significant thing, avoiding death-wise.
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Old 07-24-2014, 07:02 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Farmer Hank View Post
Uhhh.... I'm kinda having trouble seeing any real difference between "trail braking" and "plain braking while turning". True, trail braking happens before the apex and involves a progressive release of the front brake as lean angle increases. Plain braking could happen anywhere in a turn. As I see it, the skill to be learned is that your front brake pressure needs to reflect lean angle. Both throttle and brake need to be finessed very gently at the high lean angles involved in track days or racing. At a typical street pace and lean angles you can get away with quite a lot of braking (or throttle) while cornering if you keep it smooth. Keeping two fingers on the front brake lever when riding twisties helps me avoid "grabbing" with four fingers and having a big sudden input.
i think you've actually outlined the difference quite well.

applying the brakes while already in a turn is not trail braking (at least not what i understand to be the definition of "trail braking"). it's "just plain braking" while turning.

i think your entire post is spot on, though.
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Old 07-24-2014, 07:19 PM   #57
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Good article on trail braking on the street

http://www.n2td.org/trail-braking/

Lots of good conversation about trail braking techniques being taught by riding courses. I have nothing new to add to that topic but The above link is a very good instructional article on trail braking for the street. Good read.
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Old 07-24-2014, 07:34 PM   #58
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http://www.n2td.org/trail-braking/

Lots of good conversation about trail braking techniques being taught by riding courses. I have nothing new to add to that topic but The above link is a very good instructional article on trail braking for the street. Good read.
excellent article, thanks for posting it.

he makes a lot of really good points. i'm inspired to start trail braking on the street more.
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Old 07-24-2014, 08:09 PM   #59
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Very good read. Too bad it's so short. I especially like the part about how easy it is to brake a little more if needed when you are already planning on braking partway through the corner. Easy as pie to do a little more stopping for that unexpected deer or Deere.
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Old 07-24-2014, 08:16 PM   #60
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+ 1 also.

This paragraph particularly resonated. We don’t crash on perfect days with perfect pavement and perfect tires. We crash when something unexpected crops up. The gravel, the truck in your lane, the water across the road mid-corner. If you’ve entered the corner with no brakes, then you’ve basically reduced your options to attempting to reapply the brakes when you see the unexpected surprise, adding lean angle, or standing the bike up and running off the road. You need to make a habit of turning into corners with just a little brake pressure because the unexpected is much easier to deal with if your brake pads are already squeezing your discs. You will be in control of your speed and as your speed drops, your bike will be able to carve a tighter radius at the same lean angle.

Now lets talk about body position, just kidding.
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