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Old 07-24-2014, 11:16 PM   #61
tkent02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
+ 1 also.

This paragraph particularly resonated. We don’t crash on perfect days with perfect pavement and perfect tires. We crash when something unexpected crops up. The gravel, the truck in your lane, the water across the road mid-corner. If you’ve entered the corner with no brakes, then you’ve basically reduced your options to attempting to reapply the brakes when you see the unexpected surprise, adding lean angle, or standing the bike up and running off the road. You need to make a habit of turning into corners with just a little brake pressure because the unexpected is much easier to deal with if your brake pads are already squeezing your discs. You will be in control of your speed and as your speed drops, your bike will be able to carve a tighter radius at the same lean angle.

Now lets talk about body position, just kidding.
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Old 07-24-2014, 11:28 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post

Will learners die/crash if they don't learn trail-breaking?
Some will, some won't. None of them would be killed by telling them there's another way.
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Old 07-25-2014, 03:33 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
+ 1 also.

This paragraph particularly resonated. We don’t crash on perfect days with perfect pavement and perfect tires. We crash when something unexpected crops up. The gravel, the truck in your lane, the water across the road mid-corner. If you’ve entered the corner with no brakes, then you’ve basically reduced your options to attempting to reapply the brakes when you see the unexpected surprise, adding lean angle, or standing the bike up and running off the road. You need to make a habit of turning into corners with just a little brake pressure because the unexpected is much easier to deal with if your brake pads are already squeezing your discs. You will be in control of your speed and as your speed drops, your bike will be able to carve a tighter radius at the same lean angle.

Now lets talk about body position, just kidding.
Had a further thought on this subject. The reason I'd added the throw away comment 'body position' at the bottom above was because as I read through the paragraph from the article I felt 'body position' could be equally substituted where ever the word 'braking' was used. The advanced rider has two main skills to deal with the unknown, good braking skills and good body position. By 'body position' I mean everything associated with the confidence and technique to hang into the corner and get on the gas to drive the bike through the emerging 'challenge'.

To my point, I accept the the beginning rider is unlikely to have much in the way of 'body position' skills, it takes time to develop. So that ONLY leaves them with the skills of the braking in the corner to deal with the unforeseen. With me so far? They aren't going to drop into a corner and gas it, they will always go for the brakes. So rather than being something a beginning rider doesn't need to be concerned about, because its the ONLY skill they have to deal with the unforeseen in a corner it is even MORE important than an advanced ride that they have some ability in this skill. The advanced rider has a 'couple of strings to his bow', the beginner only has one, so they better have some skill in it.

Did that make sense after a six pack waiting for the Friday night football to start on TV?
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Old 07-25-2014, 03:56 AM   #64
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Slow in, fast out has always been the go for me. I'm talking bitumen, not dirt.
I know that if I have the braking mostly done before tipping in, I can adjust the throttle through the corner and accelerate harder when I can see the exit.

If its a tightening radius corner then 99 times out of 100 looking where you want to go will get you there. The bike is more capable than you are (mostly!).
If I need to brake during the corner I will, but remember that braking will make the bike stand up, when you actually want the opposite!
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Old 07-25-2014, 04:51 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by PK2 View Post
Slow in, fast out has always been the go for me. I'm talking bitumen, not dirt.
I know that if I have the braking mostly done before tipping in, I can adjust the throttle through the corner and accelerate harder when I can see the exit.

If its a tightening radius corner then 99 times out of 100 looking where you want to go will get you there. The bike is more capable than you are (mostly!).
If I need to brake during the corner I will, but remember that braking will make the bike stand up, when you actually want the opposite!
Did you have a chance to read the article about why braking into a corner was critical by the Lead Instructor - Yamaha Champions Riding School? Seems a pretty credible source to me "you can actually improve your bike’s steering geometry, helping it turn better. A slightly collapsed front fork tightens the bike’s rake and trail numbers and allows it to turn in less time and distance." "As the front brake is released the fork springs rebound, putting the bike in the worst geometry to steer. As this rider works within this technique, he/she will attempt to turn the bike quicker and quicker, trying to make up for the extended steering geometry with more and more aggressive steering inputs. The faster they ride, the wider the bike wants to run through the corners, …a recipe for disaster.".

I brake hard and deep into corners and just as the author says when done together with aggressive body position no standing up of the bike is experienced, quite the opposite. The bike turns into the corner far better when I'm hard on the brakes and body position down and forward. If a bike did stand-up just because the brakes were applied going deep into a corner a MotoGP rider would run wide on just about every corner.
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Old 07-25-2014, 05:46 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by PK2 View Post
If I need to brake during the corner I will, but remember that braking will make the bike stand up, when you actually want the opposite!
This is not true. Braking will tend to make the bike stand up, but you don't have to let it. You can easily hold any bike down in a curve while braking, but it does take more countersteering to keep it down. Just another reason to practice at braking while cornering. If you do it all the time the bike will never go off it's intended line from braking. If you only do it once in a blue moon when something scares you, who knows where it will all end up?
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Old 07-25-2014, 06:55 AM   #67
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FTR, I've taken two MSF BRCs in my day, and in both of them, the instructors mentioned trail braking as an advanced technique that the new riders will want to eventually learn. Both times they made it explicit that they were ensuring that new riders were taught the fundamentals first, but never once said "this is the only way to brake or you'll die."

Obviously, YMMV.
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Old 07-25-2014, 06:57 AM   #68
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I have a strong memory of training with Keith Code and doing his (back then, not sure if he still does it) exercise where he had you select a single gear and ride the track without using brakes at all. He said a couple of club racers with a year's experience each had dropped a second from their best lap times using this method, and after trying it I could believe him.

His point was that the critical judgment for fast laps on a track was the maximum speed at which you could enter a corner and still make it around. The harder you are braking on entry, the harder it is to pick that speed and turn in at that speed, rather than slowing past that speed and entering the corner too slow.

Now that is track, and we are talking public roads and trail riding. Seems to me the point is worth even more off the track. Sure, cover the brake on turn-in, just in case. But if you are braking hard-ish all the way to the apex on the road, my guess is you could go faster and safer by getting your braking done sooner.
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Old 07-25-2014, 07:39 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by B.Curvin View Post
I practice everyday. I'm at 80mph when I reach the red arrow at the bridge. On the brakes and down to 45/46mph by the time I transition back on the throttle at the green dash. Up to 49/52mph when I once again get on the brakes for the light. Six days a week. My goal is to stay above 50mph start to finish.



My front Shinko 705 was quiet cupped at ~6,000 miles.
I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who does stuff like this.
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Old 07-25-2014, 08:01 AM   #70
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But if you are braking hard-ish all the way to the apex on the road, my guess is you could go faster and safer by getting your braking done sooner.
Let's see what *Nick Ienatsch, Lead Instructor - Yamaha Champions Riding School has to say on that point:

We want to trail brake to control our speed closer to the slowest point of the corner. The closer we get to that point, the easier it is to judge whether we’re going too fast or too slow. If your style is to let go of the brakes before turning into the corner, understand that you’re giving up on your best speed control (the front brake) and hoping that your pre-turn-in braking was sufficient to get your speed correct at the slowest point in the corner. If you get in too slow, this is no big deal. The problem comes when the rider’s upright braking doesn’t shed the required speed and suddenly the rider is relying on lean angle to make it through the surprisingly tight turn. Or to get under the gravel patch. Or to the right of the Chevy pickup halfway in his/her lane.


So if you assume the apex is the slowest point in the corner Nick is saying, if I understand him correctly, braking all the way to the apex is the fastest and safest method.

http://www.n2td.org/trail-braking/

*Nick Ienatsch is the YCRS chief instructor with over 18 years of world-leading motorcycle instruction, heading the Freddie Spencer school and the FastTrack school before that. His teaching techniques are rooted in a successful professional racing career which includes two AMA SuperTeams national championships, four top-three annual finishes in AMA 250 GP competition, two #1 plates from Willow Springs, three WERA Grand National Championships, and top-three finishes in AMA 600 SuperSport. Nick has been a motojournalist since 1984 and currently writes for Cycle World magazine. Has written a book Sport Riding Techniques and The Pace and The Pace 2.0, two seminal articles in motojournalism.
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:23 AM   #71
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Ienatsch iirc is a former magazine test rider who got into racing and nearly won an AMA 250 championship. So he should know his stuff and he should be able to express it. But context is important and especially so here.

The top racers brake hard almost to the apex because they have top-racer skills. Even then Jorge Lorenzo, until last year the benchmark in MotoGP, was widely known to have developed unmatched mid-corner speed by getting onto - and off - the brakes sooner than his rivals.

Ienatsch in that article recommends using a wee bit of brake going in. Not a lot - he says most of the braking should happen beforehand. His point IMO is that if you are using a bit of brake then you can more easily use a bit more if required.

What he neglects to distinguish is the way racers trail brake from the way good road riders trail brake. Top racers are not holding a bit of brake just in case they got in too fast, or the turn tightens up. Either scenario will cost them half a second and the best racers' lap times vary by only a couple of tenths lap to lap, unless they are overtaking or defending a line. They know exactly how tight each turn is and if they are fine-tuning their apex speed with the brake we are talking small fractions of one mph. Ienatsch knows this and I imagine the reason he brings racing into the piece is for emphasis.

In road riding the turns usually are much less familiar and he is simply pointing out that it can be helpful to feather the brake in a turn rather than succumb to the belief that in a turn the front brake is off limits. Hence his anecdote about cruiser riders who'd never used the front brake.

But I doubt very much that the author of The Pace is proponing rushing into road turns so hard that you need to use the brake. Think about it: if you can use the brake while leaned over, then if you weren't using the brake you could lean over more.

The deeper point here is that the road (or trail) isn't the track. Cornering on the road at track pace is a quick route to the cemetery. Typically we all have heaps of mid-corner grip to spare most of the time on the road, and especially on unfamiliar roads. Most of the time if we run wide it is not because we run out of grip, but because we can't steer the bike quickly enough to make use of the grip we have, or because the grip level is uncertain and we don't want to test it. in either case braking is a good option, since we have grip to spare - or if we don't then at least we can learn that with the brake. That I think is Ienatsch's core point. And so he recommends being prepared for that choice, by holding a wee bit of brake going in. But - critically, I think - that wee bit of brake isn't really necessary for making the turn. It is just about settling the bike. My point was that those entering road or trail turns hard-ish on the brakes could find some speed and safety by getting slowed sooner. It is not clear to me that Ienatsch would disagree. (But I've been wrong before. )
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Old 07-25-2014, 10:41 AM   #72
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Hey, what happened to the pissing contest that Catweasel was trying to start? I was looking forward to that a little bit and then.... nothing.
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Old 07-25-2014, 11:45 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by steve68steve View Post
Hey, what happened to the pissing contest that Catweasel was trying to start? I was looking forward to that a little bit and then.... nothing.
I have no idea. This little pissing match was enough to put him on ignore.
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Old 07-25-2014, 11:53 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by steve68steve View Post
Hey, what happened to the pissing contest that Catweasel was trying to start? I was looking forward to that a little bit and then.... nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by B.Curvin View Post
I have no idea. This little pissing match was enough to put him on ignore.
Some of you guys are very sensitive fellows aren't you. Good for you.

For those of you wondering about the so called pissing contest I've quoted my post below but if you're as sensitive as B Curv and Steve, maybe you'd best look away


Quote:
Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
So basically you think the Idaho Star and the MSF (not to mentioned practically every single basic riding skills course I've ever heard of) are doing it wrong and that folks should learn how to "trail brake" before being allowed on public roads?
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catweasel67 screwed with this post 07-25-2014 at 12:00 PM
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Old 07-25-2014, 11:58 AM   #75
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I would like to point out the irony of johnCW post. in a thread on countersteering he is adamant about not explaining it to new riders as it is too much information for them. instead he insists on pushing body position as the proper way to turn. on this thread he thinks a new rider must be taught advance braking techniques.
I maintain he is wrong on both threads.
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