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Old 07-25-2014, 01:44 PM   #76
steve68steve
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Ahhhh. There, now it's a advrider thread!

:)
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Old 07-25-2014, 02:30 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by farmerstu View Post
I would like to point out the irony of johnCW post. in a thread on countersteering he is adamant about not explaining it to new riders as it is too much information for them. instead he insists on pushing body position as the proper way to turn. on this thread he thinks a new rider must be taught advance braking techniques.
I maintain he is wrong on both threads.
Not explaining counter steering to beginner riders????? Correct body position isn't a valuable technique?????? Trail braking is an advanced technique not an important fundamental??????

You clearly have taken to making up anything to try and personally discredit me, even changing topics, making up things I'm supposed to have said, anything. As you aren't interested in discussion the point in any way, have nothing useful to say, and only want to engage in personal attack..... goodbye, this will be the last time I'll respond to anything you ever write.

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Old 07-25-2014, 03:43 PM   #78
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Ienatsch iirc is a former magazine test rider who got into racing and nearly won an AMA 250 championship. So he should know his stuff and he should be able to express it.

Ienatsch in that article recommends using a wee bit of brake going in. Not a lot - he says most of the braking should happen beforehand. But I doubt very much that the author of The Pace is proposing rushing into road turns so hard that you need to use the brake.

The deeper point here is that the road (or trail) isn't the track. Cornering on the road at track pace is a quick route to the cemetery.
No disagreement of the first point. My first thought when reading Nick Ienatsch's article was this is a guy who knows his stuff, and knows how to communicate it. What's the article called? Trail Braking: On the track to win, on the street to survive What the very first words of his article on trail-braking ...... Many “riding experts” feel trail braking is an advanced technique that beginning riders shouldn't worry about. I don’t agree. It’s the new, low-mileage riders that are crashing the most, and the main reason they crash is due to too much speed at the corner entrance. He also goes on to say they are ill equipped to deal with the unforeseen once into the turn. Simply saying that if riders are at the correct speed before entering a corner they'd have no problem, is not dissimilar to saying if everyone drove safely there would be no smashes. They are both true statements, but they are theory not what actually happens.

Your reference to The Pace (written 20 years ago) is interesting. As I was keen to see what Nick had to say on other aspects I read it for the first time last night. My first thought was hold on, this is a complete contradiction to the trail-braking article. So I read The Pace 2, and what does he say.... So here we are more than 20 years later. The Pace’s message continues to ring true in many ways but I want to review and strengthen the best of the message and make amendments to the worst. Let’s call it Pace 2.0. What does he consider his worst message in The Pace:

In The Pace I wrote that you might not see a brake light flash all day. This is misleading. Readers could interpret this to mean that using the brakes is wrong, and I should have been much clearer. That is the biggest and most important clarification in The Pace 2.0: The use of brakes. You go to the brakes anytime you need your speed controlled more than is possible by simply closing the throttle. The faster you ride, the more brakes you will use, all things (like lean angle) being equal. If you’re in the habit of slamming on the brakes at every corner entrance, you are definitely not riding The Pace and that big speed and abruptness will eventually hurt you. If you use a little brake pressure to trail-brake (brake while turning) into the occasional corner, you've got the right idea.

I'm fascinated that every time a skill to improve someones riding ability and safety is mentioned the discussion like a flash turns to 'the road is not a race track'. Yes, race riders use trail braking and body position (another point for road riders corrected by Nick in Pace 2). So the logic that if you apply techniques used by track riders you'll immediately start riding like a maniac on the road only needs to be examined by reference to counter-steering. Counter-steering is a technique used on the track, will teaching active counter-steering make everyone ride like a maniac on the road? Clearly the answer is no, so why are other fundamental riding skills like appropriate trail-braking and body position any different, it isn't.

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Old 07-25-2014, 04:03 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
***repetitive text snip***

I'm fascinated that every time a skill to improve someones riding ability and safety is mentioned the discussion like a flash turns to 'the road is not a race track'. Yes, race riders use trail braking and body position (another point for road riders corrected by Nick in Pace 2). So the logic that if you apply techniques used by track riders you'll immediately start riding like a maniac on the road only needs to be examined by reference to counter-steering. Counter-steering is a technique used on the track, will teaching active counter-steering make everyone ride like a maniac on the road? Clearly the answer is no, so why is appropriate trail-braking and body position any different, it isn't.
You're missing the point John - no one's saying that trail-braking isn't worth learning, just that it's probably, and in my opinion correctly, too much for a learner who can barely do a figure 8.

Let the newb grasp the basics of braking first eh? When it's easy, when grabbing too much is more likely to cause a skid rather than a crash. There's just no way a newb will have enough subtly to correctly use the brakes when cornering. Talk to them about trail-braking and they're far more likely to go in hot and come out in pieces. Slow in, fast out.

As for Ienatsch's article, he's very track orientated, very much about going around a one way road as fast as one can. Not much mention of oil, leaves, other bikers, cagers, trucks coming the same way, let alone deer etc etc. Sure he throws in an occasional reference to the road but his focus is very clearly the track and I think that colours his judgment a tad.

And I'm sure that any decent instructor will end his or her course with words to the effect of "your basic riding course has finished but your training hasn't. Ride, gain some experience, learn your bike, come back for more training. Come back and learn about active counter-steering, come back and do a track day, learn some off-road technique, come back and learn about body positions. Come back and learn".

Slow in, fast out.

Oh, and FWIW, but there's a world of difference between covering the brakes into a corner, or even feathering them (as someone mentioned) and trail-braking.
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Old 07-25-2014, 07:53 PM   #80
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Your missing the point John - no one's saying that trail-braking isn't worth learning, just that it's probably, and in my opinion correctly, too much for a learner who can barely do a figure 8.

Talk to them about trail-braking and they're far more likely to go in hot and come out in pieces. Slow in, fast out.

As for Ienatsch's article, he's very track orientated, very much about going around a one way road as fast as one can. Not much mention of oil, leaves, other bikers, cagers, trucks coming the same way, let alone deer etc etc.
I had hoped that using the words of the head of a major rider training school, a successful racer, and serious author on the subject would encourage people to perhaps reconsider their perspective. I'm not using my words, I'm deliberately 'cut and pasting' the words of Nick Ienatsch to give credibility to the ideas. Perhaps there are those among us who feel that are more qualified than Nick to speak on the subject, I don't profess to be one of them.

When you say I'm missing the point, your also saying Nick Ienatsch is missing the point. He believes .... "Many 'riding experts' feel trail braking is an advanced technique that beginning riders shouldn't worry about. I don’t agree. It’s the new, low-mileage riders that are crashing the most, and the main reason they crash is due to too much speed at the corner entrance." Originally you were saying because its not included in basic courses is evidence it's not a required basic skill. Nick clearly disagrees with you. You may be comfortable sending out riders who can barely do a figure of 8 and let them learn the hard way. Regardless, it's near impossible to ride a motorcycle without being on the brakes going into some corners from the time you set out on the roads. Not a single person has responded to that reality.

Slow in, fast out. Are you actually reading Nick's ideas, he says ..... "It’s the new, low-mileage riders that are crashing the most, and the main reason they crash is due to too much speed at the corner entrance." You have a theory, in practice beginning riders are getting in to trouble because they don't have the skills of judgement and technique.... simple as that.

Nick Ienatsch's ideas are "very track oriented", and no mention of real world problems such as oil or leaves ........ you clearly can't have read any of them to make such a statement. "We crash when something unexpected crops up. The gravel, the truck in your lane, the water across the road mid-corner." Pace and Pace 2 are 100% road oriented articles, and his book Sport Riding Techniques, while aimed solely at the advanced rider, starts with the words "street riding is what Sport Riding Techniques focuses on" - page 1.

Nick Ienatsch to his credit appears to have significantly changed his published ideas on a couple of important aspects of riding since he wrote The Pace over 20 years ago. Motorcycles have significantly changed in the past 40 years so it is quite understandable that published road riding techniques will lag behind. I can feel the wheels spinning in someone brain on that statement already. Motorcycles before the 1980's didn't even have brakes to speak of, skinny hard rubber tires, wonky poorly handling and ill adjusted suspensions.

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Old 07-25-2014, 09:19 PM   #81
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...Oh, and FWIW, but there's a world of difference between covering the brakes into a corner, or even feathering them (as someone mentioned) and trail-braking.
There it is again: "covering" or "feathering" brakes? I'm talking about STOPPING. And I'm not talking about trail braking, either.

THAT is my beef with MSF's teaching, anyhow. It's not that they don't teach you to trail brake - it's that they don't teach you to brake AT ALL while turning/ leaning. And it's not even a failure to teach HOW to brake, it's actively teaching NOT to brake.

I guarantee people have crashed because they didn't know braking was an option due to their MSF training (or because they read that on an internet forum). It boggles my mind that people defend it. It boggles my mind that people think you can ride a m/c on the street without ever needing to slow down or stop while holding your line.

Even now I guarantee someone reading this will think, "that guy is whack - you can't use your brakes when you're leaning, you'll go down!" That thinking is wrong, it's deadly, and it's MSF dogma. To me it's like the MSF teaching that you shouldn't use the front brake because you'll go flying over the handlebars. Sure, no one will ever do a end-over, but people will die plowing into stuff all day long.

"But noobs can't handle it - they'll over-brake and crash." Then they're not ready for the street. And if they can't be trusted to implement "don't brake too hard" HTF are they going to handle "lean more," and "swerve" when TSHTF?
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:49 PM   #82
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If people really want something to sink their teeth into something try these extracts from Nick Ienatsch's The Pace 2, I happen to agree with every one of them. Is this consistent with what beginning riders are being taught or not taught?

The Pace 2.0 needs you to understand the formula Radius = mph (and mph = Radius), and not just in theory. You need to feel it. Find an empty parking lot and ride in a circle at a given lean angle, one that you’re comfortable with. Pick this lean angle, and then gently accelerate while doing your best to hold that very same lean angle. Then do it again and gently decelerate, again holding the same lean angle. Increase your speed and your radius increases, slow your speed and your radius decreases. Steady throttle holds it. After this exercise, you’ll realize how insane it is that some new riders are being taught to increase throttle and push on the inside handlebar if they enter a corner too fast. This last comment I see repeated on ADV endlessly.

Riders of longer, heavier bikes should master both front and rear brakes because, in an emergency, each brake does about 50 percent of the work. I’ve headed Harley-Davidson’s “Back to the Track” program for years and can tell you firsthand that the best stops and speed control on a cruiser/dresser/bobber utilize both front and rear brakes in roughly equal measure.

Perhaps the biggest myth lies in the sportbike world where riders have heard “never touch the rear brake.” The advice should be “never stab the rear brake.” Yes, in an emergency situation, it might only provide a small percentage of the overall stopping power due to a sportbike’s weight transfer, but this sport is all about small percentages. If you miss the car in your lane by one foot, you’ve missed the car, right? I hear this piece of advice being given to inexperienced riders constantly "never changed the back brake pads in 30k miles, don't ever use it".
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Old 07-25-2014, 10:17 PM   #83
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There it is again: "covering" or "feathering" brakes? I'm talking about STOPPING. And I'm not talking about trail braking, either.
+1

All this theoretical talk about defining what is or isn't "trail braking", what a pointless exercise. The topic is exactly as you say (I trust you won't mind if I extend it a little) fundamental skills for STOPPING, CONTROLLING, and TURNING the bike in a corner while braking.

Regarding the loss of traction when cornering and braking, The Pace 2 article gives a good explanation of why it is the sudden and violent application of brakes when cornering that overwhelms the front tire at road speeds (just what a beginner with no knowledge will do when it goes pear shaped), not the correct and safe use of brakes when cornering. "Traction loss is rarely a simple case of using too many total points; far more often it is a case of points being added too quickly. Read that sentence again, please. Quit grabbing, stabbing, hammering—and quit “flicking” the bike into the corner. Add braking, throttle and steering points in a linear manner so when you do creep up to the tire’s maximum, it has a chance to gently slide and warn you about its limit."

Teaching people to not use the brakes when cornering is setting them up to do the very things that will bring them undone.

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Old 07-26-2014, 01:30 AM   #84
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+1

All this theoretical talk about defining what is or isn't "trail braking", what a pointless exercise. The topic is exactly as you say (I trust you won't mind if I extend it a little) fundamental skills for STOPPING, CONTROLLING, and TURNING the bike in a corner while braking.

Regarding the loss of traction when cornering and braking, The Pace 2 article gives a good explanation of why it is the sudden and violent application of brakes when cornering that overwhelms the front tire at road speeds (just what a beginner with no knowledge will do when it goes pear shaped), not the correct and safe use of brakes when cornering. "Traction loss is rarely a simple case of using too many total points; far more often it is a case of points being added too quickly. Read that sentence again, please. Quit grabbing, stabbing, hammering—and quit “flicking” the bike into the corner. Add braking, throttle and steering points in a linear manner so when you do creep up to the tire’s maximum, it has a chance to gently slide and warn you about its limit."

Teaching people to not use the brakes when cornering is setting them up to do the very things that will bring them undone.
You make some reasonable points, you both do (You & Steve) but surely you have to consider the fact that, as far as I know, not one single rider basics teaching school teaches trail-braking or stopping whilst leaned over.

Oh, yes, he does mention potential road hazards but he's talking about, for the most part, about getting around the bend as quickly as you can - braking up to the apex whilst gradually releasing the brake etc etc. But riding in the real world - ie on the road - speed isn't the priority - safety is.

So I come back - what's easier to teach to a newb? Slow in, fast out - ie get all your braking done with the bike stood up or that and trail-braking/safely stopping from a leaned over position?

And if you state that riders shouldn't be allowed out on the road without being able to stop from a leaned/cornering position then OK.....but here's some questions for you

but what's the lean angle you think is reasonable? 5%? 15%? 30%? knee's down balls to the wall?
What's the speed they should be trained to? 30mph? 55mph? 60mph? 80mph?
In what conditions? Just dry? Dry and wet? Leaves on the road? Horse shit? An oil patch?
And what's the stopping distance they should achieve before failure? 10 yards? 20? 50? 100?

(You think that's too extreme? Nah. In my training course we were taught (and tested on during the exam) emergency stops - get up to 30mph, cross a line and come to a full, controlled, stop, with engine running, within about 25 yards).

And you want all that taught in a basic riding class? Would that be before or after "here's the clutch and here's the throttle"?


It's not me you're disagreeing with at this point, it's not other inmates on ADV - it's training schools with years of experience run/taught by bikers with years of experience for bikers with no experience.

Let's leave intermediate techniques to intermediate training schools and classes eh? And let's try to remember what it was like when we first threw a leg over a machine.

Again, let me be clear - I'm all for training (and for mandatory, and meaningful testing) but I also want to encourage, not discourage, more bikers on the road and if you make learning so damned, and needlessly, difficult, we're gonna see the biking community diminish.
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Old 07-26-2014, 02:45 AM   #85
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1. surely you have to consider the fact that, as far as I know, not one single rider basics teaching school teaches trail-braking or stopping whilst leaned over.

2. Oh, yes, he does mention potential road hazards but he's talking about, for the most part, about getting around the bend as quickly as you can - braking up to the apex whilst gradually releasing the brake etc etc. But riding in the real world - ie on the road - speed isn't the priority - safety is.

3. So I come back - what's easier to teach to a newb? Slow in, fast out - ie get all your braking done with the bike stood up or that and trail-braking/safely stopping from a leaned over position?

4. It's not me you're disagreeing with at this point, it's not other inmates on ADV - it's training schools with years of experience run/taught by bikers with years of experience for bikers with no experience.

5. If you make learning so damned, and needlessly, difficult, we're gonna see the biking community diminish.
I trust you won't mind I shortened you post down and added some point numbers only so it's clear which of your points I'm addressing.

Point 1. I don't know for certain if schools do or don't address appropriate braking technique when cornering, but that's really the key point of the whole discussion, if they don't they should.

Point 2. No, his emphasis is primarily on safety. He emphasizes repeatedly it is SAFER to retain some braking through the corner. In his book he specifically addresses probably the No 1 'killer' for new riders, the decreasing radius corner..."Decreasing-radius corners are hell for riders who don't trail brake because of our simple equation: Radius equals mph. A rider who can trail-brake simply stays on the brakes into the corner, reducing the bikes speed and thus tightening the bikes turning radius"

Point 3. Just because something is easy does't make it right, sufficient, or correct. Anyway, how hard is it to have new riders undertake the drill mentioned in The Pace 2 to demonstrate that appropriate braking tightens your turn in a corner, not makes a bike sit up and run wide which has been quoted in this thread.

Point 4. No, its some participants in this thread who are disagreeing with the thoughts of Nick Ienatsch (which Steve, Trent, and myself agree with). Nick is a highly recognized professional trainer who believes beginning riders should be aware of the technique "as it the secret to consistent street riding at any pace, on any bike."

Point 5. No quicker way to diminish the biking community than deaths or significant injury to beginning riders. On average one rider dies every week on a popular ride near where I live that has a couple of decreasing-radius corners. And that's not counting the injuries and near misses. The road is a magnet to learner riders. They have no idea what to do when they come around a moderate bend to be confronted by a steep dropping rapidly tightening turn back corner. The crash barrier gets completely replaced about every 4 weeks.

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Old 07-26-2014, 03:05 AM   #86
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I trust you won't mind I shortened you post down and added some point numbers only so it's clear which of your points I'm addressing.

Point 1. I don't know for certain if schools do or don't address appropriate braking technique when cornering, but that's really the key point of the whole discussion, if they don't they should.

Point 2. No, his emphasis is primarily on safety. He emphasizes repeatedly it is SAFER to retain some braking through the corner. In his book he specifically addresses probably the No 1 'killer' for new riders, the decreasing radius corner..."Decreasing-radius corners are hell for riders who don't trail brake because of our simple equation: Radius equals mph. A rider who can trail-brake simply stays on the brakes into the corner, reducing the bikes speed and thus tightening the bikes turning radius"

Point 3. Just because something is easy does't make it right, sufficient, or correct. Anyway, how hard is it to have new riders undertake the drill mentioned in The Pace 2 to demonstrate that appropriate braking tightens your turn in a corner, not makes a bike sit up and run wide which has been quoted in this thread.

Point 4. No, its some participants in this thread who are disagreeing with the thoughts of Nick Ienatsch (which Steve, Trent, and myself agree with). Nick is a highly recognized professional trainer who believes beginning riders should be aware of the technique "as it the secret to consistent street riding at any pace, on any bike."

Point 5. No quicker way to diminish the biking community than deaths or significant injury to beginning riders. On average one rider dies every week on a popular ride near where I live that has a couple of decreasing-radius corners. And that's not counting the injuries and near misses. The road is a magnet to learner riders. They have no idea what to do when they come around a moderate bend to be confronted by a steep dropping rapidly tightening turn back corner. The crash barrier get replaced completely about every 4 weeks.
I could be wrong here but point 3 - trail braking is the technique of easing off on the brakes as you approach the apex - that's why the bike doesn't stand up. That's why it "tightens up" (or rather doesn't stand up), because you're easing off on the brakes. It's nothing to do with emergency braking in a corner - it is, primarily, a race-track technique, meant to optimise the speed through corner.

If you increase the amount of brakes you're using, eg in an emergency, the bike will try to stand up - assuming that is that you don't over-cook it and low/high side.

Emergency braking in a corner means increasing the amount of brakes you're using, not decreasing - so in that respect it's the exact opposite of trail braking.

The shit hits the fan mid-corner, you hit the brakes - because you didn't go in slow, you're already giving away braking points to traction and the risk of a high/low side is greatly increased. The chances are an experienced rider is gonna be OK but a newb's just gonna grab a handful and that's that. It takes a lot of training/experience to get to the point where you can successfully, in an emergency situation, grab just the right amount of brake (not to mention altering riding line) in order to avoid, or at least mitigate, the risk. So I maintain, it's just not for newbs. They need experience that they just don't have.

As for decreasing radius turns, please! "hell for riders"? Hasn't he heard of throttle control, riding in sight-lines, vanishing point etc. Again I put it to you that he's thinking of the track and not everyday riding.

Also, end of the day, why are you putting so much faith in the words of one man, regardless of experience, when so many other experts (institutions etc) simply don't do it. What makes that one person correct and the other several hundreds, if not thousands of teaching institutions and instructors wrong?
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Old 07-26-2014, 03:21 AM   #87
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Also, end of the day, why are you putting so much faith in the words of one man, regardless of experience, when so many other experts (institutions etc) simply don't do it. What makes that one person correct and the other several hundreds, if not thousands of teaching institutions and instructors wrong?
I think we've pretty well covered most points to death already, so we'll just probably have to 'agree to disagree'.

Why place faith in Nick's articles, because his article just happened to get posted by someone, I read it and with my 40+ years of riding experience I thought now this is a guy who actually knows something, and can articulate it very well. Others in this thread that I get a strong sense are good experienced riders are also saying exactly the same things.

People continually quote one certain snake oil salesman like he was god without question, why shouldn't I quote someone else who I believe has far more credibility and his words resonate with my experience. If you believe something must be right just because the majority say so, you would have believed those who thought the earth was flat were correct.

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Old 07-26-2014, 03:44 AM   #88
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Because his article just happened to get posted by someone, I read it and with my 40+ years of riding experience I thought now this is a guy who actually knows something, and can articulate it very well. Others in this thread that I get a strong sense are good experienced riders are also saying exactly the same things.

People continually quote one certain snake oil salesman like he was god without question, why shouldn't I quote someone else who I believe has far more credibility and his words resonate with my experience. If you believe something must be right just because the majority say so, you would have believed those who thought the earth was flat were correct.
Or in evolution...gravity......that sort of thing.

Presumably, because you don't believe in the majority you're all for creationism?

or is there a possibility that you read both sides of the argument and formed an opinion based on your 40 years of riding experience.

Whilst what I did was read both sides of the argument and then put myself in the shoes of a newbie and those of an instructor who's got a limited amount of time to transfer knowledge.

Speaking for myself, and just for myself, I regularly do all sorts of stuff that I'd never have been capable of 20 years ago.

Here's a question for everyone:

Were you taught mid-corner emergency braking during your rider training?

I wasn't.
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Old 07-26-2014, 03:45 AM   #89
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downshift before entry, compression braking and roll on throttle...practice so you dont need to touch brakes unless really needed.
I guess I trailbrake, learned it as mistakes and kept doing it because it worked. But this is what I prefer to do - chop it down, toss it in, and get on the gas.
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Old 07-26-2014, 03:50 AM   #90
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I've made a number of reference to The Pace 2. For those who can't be bothered to hunt it down here is the link. If you have even a vague interest in this topic regardless of which side of the fence you sit I encourage you to read it.

http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/09/16...riding-skills/
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