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Old 07-26-2014, 04:12 AM   #91
JohnCW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
or is there a possibility that you read both sides of the argument and formed an opinion based on your 40 years of riding experience.

Whilst what I did was read both sides of the argument and then put myself in the shoes of a newbie and those of an instructor who's got a limited amount of time to transfer knowledge.

Speaking for myself, and just for myself, I regularly do all sorts of stuff that I'd never have been capable of 20 years ago.

Here's a question for everyone: Were you taught mid-corner emergency braking during your rider training? I wasn't.
My opinion is formed on the basis of if you are going to make rider basic training a mandatory requirement, then the points I've been discussing (and others) should be included in that training.

No, I wasn't taught mid-corner braking for safety in my rider training course. I also wasn't taught counter-steering, braking, acceleration, or even how to start the bloody thing. I borrowed my friends DT250 and taught myself. My licence test was being observed to ride up the road, do a U turn, and ride back. If you could do that without falling off you got a licence.

Question: we train pilots in flight simulators because crashing jets is expensive. Does any country in the world require learner drivers (perhaps only in high population areas) to spend time in a car simulators dealing with emergencies and critical situations in order to reduce real tragedies? No one? Well them as no one does it, it must be a really stupid idea. Let's continue to train car drivers exactly the same way we have for the past 100 years. Demonstrate you can park it, here's your licence son, now go out and have several real near death experiences to learn the importance of being safety aware. Brilliant!
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Old 07-26-2014, 04:22 AM   #92
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As so often occurs in Av Rider threads, the point seems to be that some members have the needs to "prove" on the interwebz that they have the bigger mental dick.

Riding technique as taught by different groups varies depending on who is doing the training. One of the major problems with training, is don't teach someone something that MAY put you in any sense as liable if they crash.

Technique that works for Bob can kill Bill because Bill is a clumsy idiot with no sense of balance, poor peripheral vision, and a brain that runs at a baud rate of 4. SOME people just should never ride a motorcycle, and no amount of training will help.

Obviously, if the road surface is wet, or contaminated (insert favourite contaminant here ________. The old Brake first, then turn thing applies since loss of traction from the contaminant leaves little from the traction pie. Bottom line, Ride cautiously, use your observational abilities to judge the road, and don't be an idiot. It is virtually impossible to quantify the variables that determine if you can trail brake, or how vigorously you do it.

Some of the roads I ride would be suicide to trail brake because of conditions, and some roads are good enough to use Moto GP like braking, with the rear tire hovering. Depends on conditions, machine, setup and skill level. The technique is not only a good skill to have, but can save you ass when that unexpected hazard pops up mid corner. Used in conjunction with other cornering technique such as throttle control can be a life saver. Just hope the rider behind you is also up to the task.

The simple test for if you have the right stuff to ride is this: If you have a crash or near crash/harrowing event, and can remember in detail everything that happened, what you did, and how that affected the outcome (some describe it as time dilution, or going in slow motion), you have the right stuff. If what happened was a blur that left you with a WTF moment, step away from the throttle and go get something with a roll cage because you will NEVER have the skill set to save you ass when the shit hits the fan for real.
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Old 07-26-2014, 04:35 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by fast1075 View Post
As so often occurs in Av Rider threads, the point seems to be that some members have the needs to "prove" on the interwebz that they have the bigger mental dick.
As so often occurs in AV Rider threads, the point seems to be that some members have the need to "prove" they can be offensive.
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Old 07-26-2014, 06:20 AM   #94
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Old 07-26-2014, 06:53 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
My opinion is formed on the basis of if you are going to make rider basic training a mandatory requirement, then the points I've been discussing (and others) should be included in that training.

No, I wasn't taught mid-corner braking for safety in my rider training course. I also wasn't taught counter-steering, braking, acceleration, or even how to start the bloody thing. I borrowed my friends DT250 and taught myself. My licence test was being observed to ride up the road, do a U turn, and ride back. If you could do that without falling off you got a licence.

Question: we train pilots in flight simulators because crashing jets is expensive. Does any country in the world require learner drivers (perhaps only in high population areas) to spend time in a car simulators dealing with emergencies and critical situations in order to reduce real tragedies? No one? Well them as no one does it, it must be a really stupid idea. Let's continue to train car drivers exactly the same way we have for the past 100 years. Demonstrate you can park it, here's your licence son, now go out and have several real near death experiences to learn the importance of being safety aware. Brilliant!
Well, at least we agree on one thing eh? That any training is better than no training and that a mandatory, and meaningful, test is vital.

FWIW you had the same type of test as my brother. My grandfather bought his licence from the local post office for "tuppance ha'penny", my father was given his by the RAF and I had a tail when I did mine.
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Old 07-26-2014, 11:30 PM   #96
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Why anyone would want to not learn something that works is beyond me.
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Old 07-26-2014, 11:34 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
I think we've pretty well covered most points to death already, so we'll just probably have to 'agree to disagree'.

Why place faith in Nick's articles, because his article just happened to get posted by someone, I read it and with my 40+ years of riding experience I thought now this is a guy who actually knows something, and can articulate it very well. Others in this thread that I get a strong sense are good experienced riders are also saying exactly the same things.

People continually quote one certain snake oil salesman like he was god without question, why shouldn't I quote someone else who I believe has far more credibility and his words resonate with my experience. If you believe something must be right just because the majority say so, you would have believed those who thought the earth was flat were correct.
I have been reading Nick since I was in High School in the late 80's, I read him for a couple years, trying to mentally prepare, before ever riding a moto. If anyone can be credited for teaching me how to ride, it's Nick.

He definitely has more credibility with me than anyone I have read on ADV.

And that's in no way an insult
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Old 07-27-2014, 06:40 AM   #98
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Just occurred to me today when I first learnt and mastered the advanced riding skills of not overwhelming the front tire with to much steering and braking input, the need to extra care on loose surfaces, and the importance of washing of sufficient speed before the corner and then staying on the brakes to control the bike through the bends ...... Here's a picture of me to doing it. Always been an ATGATT sort of guy.

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Old 07-27-2014, 06:56 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
Just occurred to me today when I first learnt and mastered the advanced riding skills of not overwhelming the front tire with to much steering and braking input, the need to extra care on loose surfaces, and the importance of washing of sufficient speed before the corner and then staying on the brakes to control the bike through the bends ...... Here's a picture of me to doing it. Always been an ATGATT sort of guy.

I bet the lessons you learned on the dirt helped you out when you took that bicycle out on the interstate!

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Old 07-27-2014, 07:34 AM   #100
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I bet the lessons you learned on the dirt helped you out when you took that bicycle out on the interstate!

Never liked riding on the interstate, still don't. As you can see always preferred the quieter back roads.
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Old 07-27-2014, 12:23 PM   #101
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Here ya go

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=805304
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Old 07-27-2014, 01:05 PM   #102
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Yes yes yes but do you think learning to do en emergency stop during a turn should be a mandatory skill that one should learn before allowed on the road?

That's the core argument here. I say no, others say yes. Reasons are given.

What say you?


I'd be kinda interesting to see what other skills feel are (currently) mandatory.

FWIW here a list of skills that UK riders are obliged to learn before being allowed on the road:
wheeling the moped or motorcycle and using the stand
riding a slalom and figure of 8
a slow ride
a U-turn
cornering and controlled stop
cornering and the emergency stop (at 30mph)*
cornering and hazard avoidance (at 30mph)*
normal stops
an angle start (pulling out from behind a parked vehicle)
a hill start (where possible

and then a 10 minute "free riding" assessment.


*before some of you go all doolally, it's corner first, straighten up and then stop/emergency stop/avoidance. There's no trail-braking, no feathering/engaging the brakes, just slow in, fast out.

Here's a link to a series of videos that explain it - http://www.probikemct.co.uk/motorcyc...ntrolled-stop/ (just click next underneath the video to see an example of the next one).
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Old 07-27-2014, 03:08 PM   #103
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When in 2nd or 3rd grade we had to pass a test to get a decal which authorized us as skillful enough to ride to school.

The test required an older 4th grader to administer.

Test 1. Ride out beyond point A
Test 2. Turn around
Test 3. Accelerate back toward administrator and apply brakes at point B coming to a stop.

Administrators job was to judge rider skill.

I rode out to point A fast.
Locked the rear brake and spun around, never stopping.
Then at point A, I accelerated standing hard on the pedals. At point B I locked up the rear brake (coaster brakes) and slid in sideways to a stop next to the kid.

From his reaction, don't believe anyone had demonstrated trail braking/squaring off turns during the test.

I got the decal.

I was an average rider in those days...rode with a fast crowd!
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Old 07-27-2014, 05:36 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
... do en emergency stop during a turn...
Again, it's not "emergency stopping" it's just stopping.

Your position is that people should ride a motorcycle on the street without knowing how to stop.
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Old 07-27-2014, 07:35 PM   #105
JohnCW
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Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
Yes yes yes but do you think learning to do en emergency stop during a turn should be a mandatory skill that one should learn before allowed on the road?

That's the core argument here. I say no, others say yes. Reasons are given.
I believe plenty of reasons have been given why it should be a fundamental requirement for a beginner rider to be able to stop, slow, and control a motorcycle in a corner using their brakes. I'm not being smart, but I still don't understand the opposing argument, other than (a) its not currently taught or a requirement for a permit, and (b) some consider it an 'advanced' riding skill and to difficult for beginners. My kid on the pushbike picture is directed at that point.

It might be helpful if you clearly laid out the reasons why you feel a beginner rider doesn't need to be able to slow, control, or stop a motorcycle with the brakes in a corner. Brief bullet points would be helpful. No need to cover again that it's not currently a mandatory permit requirement, that point is well appreciated.
.

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