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Old 07-27-2014, 11:47 PM   #106
catweasel67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve68steve View Post
Again, it's not "emergency stopping" it's just stopping.

Your position is that people should ride a motorcycle on the street without knowing how to stop.
Wrong. But you knew that.......
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Old 07-28-2014, 12:03 AM   #107
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I believe plenty of reasons have been given why it should be a fundamental requirement for a beginner rider to be able to stop, slow, and control a motorcycle in a corner using their brakes. I'm not being smart, but I still don't understand the opposing argument, other than (a) its not currently taught or a requirement for a permit, and (b) some consider it an 'advanced' riding skill and to difficult for beginners. My kid on the pushbike picture is directed at that point.

It might be helpful if you clearly laid out the reasons why you feel a beginner rider doesn't need to be able to slow, control, or stop a motorcycle with the brakes in a corner. Brief bullet points would be helpful. No need to cover again that it's not currently a mandatory permit requirement, that point is well appreciated.
.


Anyway, I am repeating myself but hey ho..one more time eh?

My argument, and it seems, that of most instructors and schools, is that:
  • Newbs should be instructed to do all of their slowing before the turn, with potential hazards in mind, so they avoid the situation of having to slow, or stop, mid-turn.

Why?
  • Because they (the newbs) lack the sensitivity to manage the brakes whilst negotiating a turn and swerving to avoid a hazard. They're on a steep learning curve as it is, so let's not make that curve steeper and let's not increase the price for fucking up - you and I both know what happens if you grab too much brake mid-corner.

Let them learn some brake and bike sensitivity, get some real world experience, put some miles under their wheels, and then come back and learn the more advanced techniques.

I don't really expect you to agree with me by the way, but I'd be interested in hearing from you as to how you'd test this ability?
  • What speed?
  • What lean angle?
  • How much run off?
  • Would you introduce real world hazards such as crash barriers, trees, on-coming vehicles?
  • What's the success criteria? Don't crash/die and you pass? Seems a bit harsh no?
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Old 07-28-2014, 01:21 AM   #108
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An obvious point when attempting to teach novice riders to stop mid corner is that you are going to smash a lot of bikes and injure or worse a lot of trainee riders, because until you have developed the kind of innate feel for weight transfer & braking & front tyre grip that comes from a very great deal of repetition & experience of braking in a straight line, you are going to tuck the front a fair percentage of the time when trying to stop...

So, either you don't let anybody have a motorcycle licence until they have spent a thousand hours practising braking on a training range so they can learn to brake mid corner without crashing their brains out during the learning process (not feasible either financially or practically, obviously), OR you accept that your training program is going to smash a lot of bikes and generate a lot of casualties (are you saying we should do this training for safety reasons?), OR you make sure they get the idea of getting their braking done in a straight line before a corner ingrained instead.

Now, if the stats showed that novice riders were crashing and killing or injuring themselves on the street in significant numbers because of an inability to trail brake mid corner, then it might be the case that teaching people to brake mid corner was worth all the resulting broken bikes & bodies. But they don't. When teaching a skill to novices is likely to cause more casualties than having the skill on day one is likely to save, it's a skill that shouldn't be taught...

This sort of decision making process is not unique to the realm of motorcycling. One example that I'm aware of is that there is no doubt that novice private pilot's lives would or at least could be saved by them being able to reliably recover their aircraft from a spin, lest they spiral into the ground out of control, should they somehow be unfortunate enough to get into one, and so it used to be mandatory for trainee pilots to have to demonstrate that they had mastered spin recovery... until somebody noticed that they were killing more student pilots while they attempted to learn spin recovery than were dying from actually unintentionally getting into spins. So my understanding is that now training focuses on how not to get into a spin accidentally, and they _tell_ students how to recover from a spin, but nobody ever has to demonstrate that they can...

Co-incidentally, BMW have just released ABS that works mid-corner for their BMW HP4 motorcycles, which use the Bosch ABS electronics... and of particular interest is the fact that it's retrofittable, you give the nice man from BMW money and then they apply a software patch to your bike's ABS system... it's a software only patch, no hardware changes required, and what it allows you to do is grab the front brake and stamp on the rear at full lean mid corner, and the bike will just come to a halt, no drama. I assume that this will be ubiquitous in a few years time, rendering this whole discussion moot...
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Old 07-28-2014, 02:26 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
Point 1: Newbs should be instructed to do all of their slowing before the turn, with potential hazards in mind, so they avoid the situation of having to slow, or stop, mid-turn.

Point 2: Why? Because they (the newbs) lack the sensitivity to manage the brakes whilst negotiating a turn and swerving to avoid a hazard.

Point 3: I'd be interested in hearing from you as to how you'd test this ability.
Point 1: In your methodology you're instructing a 'newbs' to slow to a speed prior to every corner that would allow them to deal with every situation likely to occur without needing to reduce speed or stop mid-turn in the corner. If they don't have the wisdom or experience to touch the brakes, how can they be expected to have the wisdom and experience to (a) know what unforeseen circumstances might occur, and (b) know what the right speed should be to deal with the circumstances they don't understand? Basically you nearly telling them they should come to a slow crawl before turning into every corner. Of course that's a ridiculous suggestion, but it's what your position virtually is.

Point 2: I've already pointed out that a 6 year old has the skills to manage the sensitivity of the brakes of a light two wheel vehicle on dirt at a reasonable speed. By telling new riders to have their hands completely of the brakes they will do exactly what they are supposed not to do when confronted by the unexpected, grab the brakes in an panic fashion. The outcome will be EXACTLY what you are saying will supposedly happen if they had their hands on the brakes. A more controlled approach to the use of brakes will PREVENT this happening.

Point 3: Why must it be formally tested? Why can't you explain, demonstrate, practice some aspect of a training program without a formal pass/fail mark on that element? How did you formally assess they understood active counter-steering? They they can go around corners? How do you test they understood and can apply being at the correct speed to enter all the corners that may encounter on the road? They pulled up next to some safety cones in a parking lot?
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Old 07-28-2014, 02:38 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by kwh View Post
An obvious point when attempting to teach novice riders to stop mid corner is that you are going to smash a lot of bikes and injure or worse a lot of trainee riders, because until you have developed the kind of innate feel for weight transfer & braking & front tyre grip that comes from a very great deal of repetition & experience of braking in a straight line, you are going to tuck the front a fair percentage of the time when trying to stop...

So, either you don't let anybody have a motorcycle licence until they have spent a thousand hours practising braking on a training range so they can learn to brake mid corner without crashing their brains out during the learning process (not feasible either financially or practically, obviously),
Your whole point is predicated on the belief that a beginner can't manage the brakes and can successful ride without using the brakes in a corner. A number of time I've made the statement that is impossible in practical terms to ride a motorcycle on the street and not have to apply the brakes in some corners. Not a single person has stepped forward to challange that claim.

Let me say it again so there is no ambiguity, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO RIDE A MOTORCYCLE IN PRACTICAL TERMS ON THE ROAD WITHOUT USING THE BRAKES THROUGH A CORNER IN SOME SITUATIONS TO SLOW YOUR SPEED. Clear enough? So if you can't do it you have no place being on the road.
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Old 07-28-2014, 02:46 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
Point 1: In your methodology you're instructing a 'newbs' to slow to a speed prior to every corner that would allow them to deal with every situation likely to occur without needing to reduce speed or stop mid-turn in the corner. If they don't have the wisdom or experience to touch the brakes, how can they be expected to have the wisdom and experience to (a) know what unforeseen circumstances might occur, and (b) know what the right speed should be to deal with the circumstances they don't understand? Basically you nearly telling them they should come to a slow crawl before turning into every corner. Of course that's a ridiculous suggestion, but it's what your position virtually is.

Point 2: I've already pointed out that a 6 year old has the skills to manage the sensitivity of the brakes of a light two wheel vehicle on dirt at a reasonable speed. By telling new riders to have their hands completely of the brakes they will do exactly what they are supposed not to do when confronted by the unexpected, grab the brakes in an panic fashion. The outcome will be EXACTLY what you are saying will supposedly happen if they had their hands on the brakes. A more controlled approach to the use of brakes will PREVENT this happening.

Point 3: Why must it be formally tested? Why can't you explain, demonstrate, practice some aspect of a training program without a formal pass/fail mark on that element? How did you formally assess they understood active counter-steering? They they can go around corners? How do you test they understood and can apply being at the correct speed to enter all the corners that may encounter on the road? They pulled up next to some safety cones in a parking lot?
I'll take point 3 first - if it's so critical that newbs learn it, then why is testing capability not critical? And if you're not gonna make it a mandatory skill, then why are you still arguing?
As for active counter-steering, that was never tested for, passive was explained, but there's no expectation for newbs to actively counter-steer.

Point 2 - If motorbikes were anything like a pushbike, size, weight, speed etc I'd agree with you. If the consequences of making a mistake were similar, I'd agree with you. But they're not..so how about we stop comparing a 6 year old on a pushbike riding on dirt to an adult riding a motorbike on the road for the first time?

And finally, your first point - you've made a weak attempt at reductio ad absurdum. Seems to me that you're running out of arguments.

Once again, I'm not arguing about the "if" but only the "when". And let's bring your 6 year old back into the discussion eh? Did you stick him on the bike for the first time, on a steep hill, without training wheels, and give him a good shove? I doubt it. My suspicion (and hope) is that you gave him training wheels, a helping hand, maybe a course or two, a reasonable bike appropriate to his skill level, and, above all, time and patience. Or are you suggesting that he gained brake sensitivity, and the skills he's demonstrating in the picture, instantaneously?
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Old 07-28-2014, 02:53 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
Your whole point is predicated on the belief that a beginner can't manage the brakes and can successful ride without using the brakes in a corner. A number of time I've made the statement that is impossible in practical terms to ride a motorcycle on the street and not have to apply the brakes in some corners. Not a single person has stepped forward to challange that claim.

Let me say it again so there is no ambiguity, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO RIDE A MOTORCYCLE IN PRACTICAL TERMS ON THE ROAD WITHOUT USING THE BRAKES THROUGH A CORNER IN SOME SITUATIONS TO SLOW YOUR SPEED. Clear enough? So if you can't do it you have no place being on the road.

Demonstrably and as a matter of observation you are wrong. If you need to use your brakes mid corner more than once in a blue moon then you are definitely doing it wrong!

Slow in, fast out plus positioning for the view, understanding & using the limit point to read the road & good throttle control in a responsive gear should take care of 99% of your cornering speed control needs, & tightening the turn then standing the bike up to hammer the brakes as hard as necessary in a straight line should take care of most of the rest. The remaining situations are statistical noise. If this is not your experience then I suggest you might want to get that looked at...
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Old 07-28-2014, 03:06 AM   #113
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Demonstrably and as a matter of observation you are wrong. If you need to use your brakes mid corner more than once in a blue moon then you are definitely doing it wrong!

Slow in, fast out plus positioning for the view, understanding & using the limit point to read the road & good throttle control in a responsive gear should take care of 99% of your cornering speed control needs, & tightening the turn then standing the bike up to hammer the brakes as hard as necessary in a straight line should take care of most of the rest. The remaining situations are statistical noise. If this is not your experience then I suggest you might want to get that looked at...
Explain to me how you ride down a long steep winding mountain road with a large truck or heavy traffic in front of you and the drivers ahead of you are hard and erratic on the brakes in every corner, and you can ride behind them not using your brakes in the corners to so stop running up their arse, or only applying them on the largely non existent straights?
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Old 07-28-2014, 03:08 AM   #114
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Separation, & a low gear...
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Old 07-28-2014, 03:13 AM   #115
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Explain to me how you ride down a long steep winding mountain road with a large truck or heavy traffic in front of you and the drivers ahead of you are hard and erratic on the brakes in every corner, and you can ride behind them not using your brakes in the corners to so stop running up their arse, or only applying them on the largely non existent straights?
You coast down hills in neutral?
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Old 07-28-2014, 03:22 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by catweasel67 View Post
As for active counter-steering, that was never tested for, passive was explained, but there's no expectation for newbs to actively counter-steer.

And let's bring your 6 year old back into the discussion eh? Did you stick him on the bike for the first time, on a steep hill, without training wheels, and give him a good shove? I doubt it. My suspicion (and hope) is that you gave him training wheels, a helping hand, maybe a course or two, a reasonable bike appropriate to his skill level, and, above all, time and patience. Or are you suggesting that he gained brake sensitivity, and the skills he's demonstrating in the picture, instantaneously?
So now it turns out active counter steering is not explained to beginning riders. What on earth are they being taught?

I see you truly don't get the point that anyone who can ride a bicycle is very familiar with applying the concepts of not overloading the front tire, loose surfaces represent danger, braking mostly before the corner but stay on the brakes to fine tune you speed through the corner. You tell them to stop doing it when they done for years as a kid when they start to ride a motorcycle. I tell them to continue to do it, and discuss the various issues associated with its use.
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Old 07-28-2014, 03:29 AM   #117
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So now it turns out active counter steering is not explained to beginning riders. What on earth are they being taught?

I see you truly don't get the point that anyone who can ride a bicycle is very familiar with applying the concepts of not overloading the front tire, loose surfaces represent danger, braking mostly before the corner but stay on the brakes to fine tune you speed through the corner. You tell them to stop doing it when they done for years as a kid when they start to ride a motorcycle. I tell them to continue to do it, and discuss the various issues associated with its use.
You're "talking" but all I'm "hearing" now is white noise.
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Old 07-28-2014, 04:49 AM   #118
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...Now, if the stats showed that novice riders were crashing and killing or injuring themselves on the street in significant numbers because of an inability to trail brake mid cornert...
Have you been to a "Killboy" thread?

Isn't the #1 single-vehicle accident cause running wide or off the road because of inability to deal with a curve? And aren't a significant chunk of m/c accidents single-vehicle?

I could even argue that a significant number of riders are "novices" - at least in that they've either had NO training, or ONLY the MSF basic training.
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Old 07-28-2014, 04:58 AM   #119
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You're "talking" but all I'm "hearing" now is white noise.
As you now seem to have moved to a less than pleasant approach it's clearly time to put an end to the discussion.

JohnCW screwed with this post 07-28-2014 at 05:05 AM
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Old 07-28-2014, 05:34 AM   #120
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Entering every corner on the brakes is the complete antithesis of slow in fast out, and you are loading the front of your bike in a situation where one tar-snake, one patch of slimey leaf mold, one damp patch of white paint, one tiny puddle of spilled diesel, one slick repair patch can tuck the front tyre almost irrecoverably, definitely irrecoverably for a novice rider. And if the corner suddenly drastically tightens, and they are on the brakes, what then? Brake harder? Turn tighter? A bit of both? Do they have to understand the relationship between corner loading & braking loads on a tyre and how much one affects the limit for the other?

No, if you are entering corners on the brakes routinely on te street you are _definitely_ doing it wrong! You can set your entry speed before you ever need to turn, because you know what you can see to be clear and that is the distance you have to stop in - it doesn't matter what your braking skill level is, your speed should allow you to stop in the distance you can see to be clear on your own side of the road... This is basic stuff! Once you enter the corner, all things being equal you enter on a slightly positive throttle and this load the fatter rear tyre more heavily. If the rear steps out on a slick spot at this point it's unlikely to have you off. If the corner tightens up, you can roll off the gas enough to maintain.the ability to stop in the etc, and if there is a tree down across the road mid corner then you obviously stop using whatever technique best works for you in the space you have left for that purpose...
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