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Old 07-28-2014, 06:41 AM   #121
kwh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve68steve View Post
Have you been to a "Killboy" thread?



Isn't the #1 single-vehicle accident cause running wide or off the road because of inability to deal with a curve? And aren't a significant chunk of m/c accidents single-vehicle?



I could even argue that a significant number of riders are "novices" - at least in that they've either had NO training, or ONLY the MSF basic training.

That's not an inability to trail brake mid corner, is it. I mean yes, in some cases superior mid-corner braking skills might have reduced an impact speed marginally here or there but the only common mid corner braking snafu I can think of is 'Why did you grab the brakes, tuck the front & fall off when if you'd just looked through the corner you would have been fine with no need to brake at all?'
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Old 07-28-2014, 07:08 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by kwh View Post
And if the corner suddenly drastically tightens, and they are on the brakes, what then? Brake harder? Turn tighter? A bit of both?
Brake Harder? Yes that's exactly what they should do as the bike will automatically turn harder as the speed decreases.

Based upon what you've written I get a feeling you may not yet have has a chance to read the article Trail Braking: On the track to win, on the street to survive by Nick Ienatsch, Lead Instructor - Yamaha Champions Riding School which has been somewhat central to this discussion. Have a read of it as well as "The Pace 2" by the same author, links to both articles below. Be interested to get your thoughts after reading the articles.

http://www.n2td.org/trail-braking/

http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/09/16...riding-skills/
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Old 07-28-2014, 07:30 AM   #123
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Brake Harder? Yes that's exactly what they should do as the bike will automatically turn harder as the speed decreases.
Well, that pretty much ends the debate, you officially don't know what you are talking about.
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Old 07-28-2014, 07:39 AM   #124
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I have read both articles, but some time ago - I fundamentally disagree with his new idea that because trail braking is the fastest way round some corners on the track, that makes it a sensible technique applicable on the road for about a million reasons, only some of which Nick Ienatsch mentioned himself in Pace 1.0 before now contradicting himself...

On a track we know what the grip level is, the profile of the corner, where the hidden bumps are, etc - and we get flags to warn us if anything has changed lap to lap... Entering a random corner on the street, who knows about any of that? So, there would be a non-zero chance of tucking the front & crashing due to an unexpected grip issue. That alone is reason enough to bin the idea. Then he suggests that because people don't know how to read the road & are coming into corners hot, charging the turns, rather than teaching them to read the road, we should encourage them to get into the corner still on the brakes and sort it out in the corner. I vote for teaching them to get the speed off in a straight line and then turn in & get straight on the gas. It's true that a steeper steering head angle makes the bike less stable & easier to turn quickly, but this isn't a MotoGP bike and if you are cornering on the street at a level where a steeper steering head angle from being on the brakes is a relevant difference, you should probably have left sizing information with local funeral jones so they can get a head start building your coffin... The point about contact patch size was just pure hokum as it is written... Grip increases with load alright, right up until the moment when the load becomes critical and slip begins, and then there is next to no grip at all almost instantaneously. & you'd need a big handful of throttle to get it back!
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Old 07-28-2014, 08:02 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Rgconner View Post
Well, that pretty much ends the debate, you officially don't know what you are talking about.
And perhaps you just 'officially' made a goose of yourself.

You've just stated that Nick Ienatsch the current chief instructor at Yamaha Champions Riding School doesn't know what he's talking about because that what he says, and I agree with him. Nick has also headed up the Freddie Spencer riding school and the FastTrack school. As a professional racer he's won two AMA SuperTeams national championships, four top-three annual finishes in AMA 250 GP competition, two #1 plates from Willow Springs, three WERA Grand National Championships, and top-three finishes in AMA 600 SuperSport. He's been a motorcycle journalist since 1984 and currently writes for Cycle World magazine, wrote the book Sport Riding Techniques, The Pace and The Pace 2.0.

OK, your saying Nick Ienatsch doesn't know what he's talking about, so what's your credentials to make such a big claim?
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Old 07-28-2014, 08:15 AM   #126
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If he is advocating trail braking as a street riding technique then he's lost the plot. Falling off on the street is a complete no no, even an apparently innocuous get off at corner entry on the street can be fatal. Any technique that increases your risk of falling off is therefore instantly marked as a terrible, awful, no good, dumb idea...
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Old 07-28-2014, 08:24 AM   #127
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I have read both articles, but some time ago. He suggests that because people don't know how to read the road & are coming into corners hot, charging the turns, rather than teaching them to read the road, we should encourage them to get into the corner still on the brakes and sort it out in the corner. I vote for teaching them to get the speed off in a straight line and then turn in & get straight on the gas.
Your not accurately representing what Nick Ienatsch is saying at all. I encourage you to read the articles again. I sort of get a feeling you may not have actually read them.

You believe when faced with an unexpected tightening radius turn beginner riders should "get straight on the gas". I take it you'd accept their throttle control is likely to be on a par with their brake control skills. Nick believes that when faced with this unexpected situation riders should apply additional brake pressure to slow the bike which will make it automatically tighten it up. It's a big statement to say someone as well credentialed as Nick Ienatsch is wrong.

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Old 07-28-2014, 08:36 AM   #128
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No, absolutely not. On both counts. That's not what I (and acres of literature) recommend, and Nick's storied race career is a terrible basis for him to tell anybody anything about how to ride on the street. There are a lot of machine control techniques that require great skills etc that would be utterly suicidal on a street ride...
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Old 07-28-2014, 08:40 AM   #129
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OK, your saying Nick Ienatsch doesn't know what he's talking about, so what's your credentials to make such a big claim?
There is nothing I said that contradicted what they said. I agree with them, but not you.

You didn't read your references right.

That is not what they say, you are making a claim, specifically that bike "will automatically turn harder as the speed decreases"

Here is what he actually said:
Quote:
If you’re sitting there thinking, “This guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about, my bike stands up when I grab the brakes mid-corner,” I’d have to say you’re right. Abrupt braking midcorner will collapse the fork and make the bike stand up. Remember, trail braking is a light touch on the brakes, not a grab. Think of trail braking as fine-tuning your entrance speed.

Nothing automatic there. You do too much and the bike stands up just like everyone expects.

He goes on:
Quote:
The second reason you need to trail brake is because you can actually improve your bike’s steering geometry, helping it turn better. A slightly collapsed front fork tightens the bike’s rake and trail numbers and allows it to turn in less time and distance. Tighter steering geometry is one reason a sport bike turns better than a cruiser. Rather than let go of the front brake before the turn-in, keep a bit of pressure on and you’ll immediately feel the difference.
Again, not the BRAKING that changes the ability of the bike, by compressing the front end, effectively shortening the trail.
Braking does the compression, compression improves the turn radius.

You could do the same thing with a mechanism that shortened the trail mechanically, without braking.
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Old 07-28-2014, 09:17 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Rgconner View Post
That is not what they say, you are making a claim, specifically that bike "will automatically turn harder as the speed decreases"

Here is what he actually said:
Nothing automatic there. You do too much and the bike stands up just like everyone expects.
Here's exactly what Nick Ienatsch actually says,:
The Pace 2.0 needs you to understand the formula Radius = mph (and mph = Radius), and not just in theory. You need to feel it. Find an empty parking lot and ride in a circle at a given lean angle, one that you’re comfortable with. Pick this lean angle, and then gently accelerate while doing your best to hold that very same lean angle. Then do it again and gently decelerate, again holding the same lean angle. Increase your speed and your radius increases, slow your speed and your radius decreases. Steady throttle holds it. After this exercise, you’ll realize how insane it is that some new riders are being taught to increase throttle and push on the inside handlebar if they enter a corner too fast.

Regarding the bike standing up, your completely missing the point. What Nick Ienatsch actually says is "For those who say their bike stands up in the corner when they brake, this is almost always a result of too much initial lever force". "Traction loss is rarely a simple case of using too many total points; far more often it is a case of points being added too quickly. Read that sentence again, please. Quit grabbing, stabbing, hammering—and quit “flicking” the bike into the corner. Add braking, throttle and steering points in a linear manner so when you do creep up to the tire’s maximum, it has a chance to gently slide and warn you about its limit.".

Sorry, Nick Ienatsch clealy states that all other things being equal, a bike will tighten up its turning radius as you reduce speed. One of his biggest arguments for staying lightly on the brakes is to prevent someone grabbing at the brakes in an emergency and making the bike stand up. What Nick Ienatsch is saying is that rather than increasing the possibility of a problem, carrying some trail braking into a corner reduces the risk of a beginner getting into difficulty. I happen to totally agree with him on both points.

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Old 07-28-2014, 09:21 AM   #131
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Sorry, Nick Ienatsch clealy states that all other things being equal, a bike will tighten up its turning radius as you reduce speed. One of his biggest arguments for staying lightly on the brakes is to prevent someone grabbing at the brakes in an emergency and making it stand up.

You missed the automatically part of your claim. Where does that come in?
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Old 07-28-2014, 09:26 AM   #132
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Demonstrably and as a matter of observation you are wrong. If you need to use your brakes mid corner more than once in a blue moon then you are definitely doing it wrong!

Slow in, fast out plus positioning for the view, understanding & using the limit point to read the road & good throttle control in a responsive gear should take care of 99% of your cornering speed control needs, & tightening the turn then standing the bike up to hammer the brakes as hard as necessary in a straight line should take care of most of the rest. The remaining situations are statistical noise. If this is not your experience then I suggest you might want to get that looked at...
"You're doing it wrong" followed by "hammer the brakes"

If some neophyte reads this, assumes you know what you're talking about and disregards the excellent advice from mr. Ienatch, that rider is bound to get hurt.
Tone it down
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Old 07-28-2014, 09:27 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
Your not accurately representing what Nick Ienatsch is saying at all. I encourage you to read the articles again. I sort of get a feeling you may not have actually read them.

You believe when faced with an unexpected tightening radius turn beginner riders should "get straight on the gas". I take it you'd accept their throttle control is likely to be on a par with their brake control skills. Nick believes that when faced with this unexpected situation riders should apply additional brake pressure to slow the bike which will make it automatically tighten it up. It's a big statement to say someone as well credentialed as Nick Ienatsch is wrong.
He's insisting he can read a blind corner.
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Old 07-28-2014, 09:30 AM   #134
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No, absolutely not. On both counts. That's not what I (and acres of literature) recommend, and Nick's storied race career is a terrible basis for him to tell anybody anything about how to ride on the street. There are a lot of machine control techniques that require great skills etc that would be utterly suicidal on a street ride...
He was a street rider and journalist who commanded the respect of his peers before he even started racing. His book, the pace was largely written from articles he wrote from the 80's and developed as a way to have safe and spirited group rides
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Old 07-28-2014, 09:31 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by JohnCW View Post
Here's exactly what Nick Ienatsch actually says,:
The Pace 2.0 needs you to understand the formula Radius = mph (and mph = Radius), and not just in theory. You need to feel it. Find an empty parking lot and ride in a circle at a given lean angle, one that you’re comfortable with. Pick this lean angle, and then gently accelerate while doing your best to hold that very same lean angle. Then do it again and gently decelerate, again holding the same lean angle. Increase your speed and your radius increases, slow your speed and your radius decreases. Steady throttle holds it. After this exercise, you’ll realize how insane it is that some new riders are being taught to increase throttle and push on the inside handlebar if they enter a corner too fast.

Regarding the bike standing up, your completely missing the point. What Nick Ienatsch actually says is "For those who say their bike stands up in the corner when they brake, this is almost always a result of too much initial lever force". "Traction loss is rarely a simple case of using too many total points; far more often it is a case of points being added too quickly. Read that sentence again, please. Quit grabbing, stabbing, hammering—and quit “flicking” the bike into the corner. Add braking, throttle and steering points in a linear manner so when you do creep up to the tire’s maximum, it has a chance to gently slide and warn you about its limit.".

Sorry, Nick Ienatsch clealy states that all other things being equal, a bike will tighten up its turning radius as you reduce speed. One of his biggest arguments for staying lightly on the brakes is to prevent someone grabbing at the brakes in an emergency and making the bike stand up. What Nick Ienatsch is saying is that rather than increasing the possibility of a problem, carrying some trail braking into a corner reduces the risk of a beginner getting into difficulty. I happen to totally agree with him on both points.
You should let these clowns suffer in their ignorance
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