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Old 10-08-2005, 01:48 PM   #16
meat popsicle OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katoom_950
It is a recall not a bullitin...

PM me for a copy with the VIN number list. There is no mention of Excel rims but it is a one for one swap out. Some have swapped already and report the replacement rims are Excel so that has got to be good...
thanks for the list katoom 950!

i am on the list...

need to call the shop repairing the bike and get this added to their work. now how much for a rear excel rim to match?
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Old 10-08-2005, 03:45 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woody's wheel works
.....simply reaching in there with your spoke wrench and snugging each one up to 5-6 Nm,,,,along with all the planets lining up for you will get you similar odds of having the above criteria met as winning the lottery....

..... and if you are concentrating on torque readings you are missing what the wheels components are telling you...
AMEN! Woody has 'spoke'n
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Old 10-08-2005, 08:10 PM   #18
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I think KTM's bulletin is trying to point out that failures have been caused by over torquing the spokes. So while woody is obviously an expert here and knows that torque ain't everything to truing a wheel within specs, the bulletin is a good heads up for average joe's with their spoke wrench trying to keep their spokes snug. good info from woody for sure too.
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Old 10-09-2005, 02:49 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meat popsicle
I think KTM's bulletin is trying to point out that failures have been caused by over torquing the spokes. So while woody is obviously an expert here and knows that torque ain't everything to truing a wheel within specs, the bulletin is a good heads up for average joe's with their spoke wrench trying to keep their spokes snug. good info from woody for sure too.
and I'm merely suggesting that if spokes are getting loose then either the soft rim is getting hammered or the spokes are metalurgically inferior - 2 known problems associated with our ktms....

Sure, spokes may elongate (?) fractionally from new (ie. become 'seated' within the rim material once dynamic loads have been applied..) and may need to be 're-torqued' but they don't just become loose.... they generally lose tension at a deformation point on the rim... and the tension opposite increases drammatically under dynamic load!


Average Joes' and their torque wrenches may achieve the spec readings but not fix the underlying problem(s)... may even exacerbate 'em, for all those reasons presented by Woody.

I've confined my '04 rims to the shed wall (as evidence for the eventual class-action...) and had excel wheels built specifically for the bike and my riding.... when I trowel these, there'll be no need to worry... 'cause I'll be stone dead.


If your on the list... great, if not, get em checked out or rebuilt by a wheel specialist - simple.

(I re-torque my head bolts every second shower)
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Old 10-09-2005, 11:04 PM   #20
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I tighten the spokes using the Spoke Torque Wrench to first establish a baseline, then measure the lateral and radial distortion and true it from there, this saves a lot of time and guesswork. It is a really useful tool, without it you could finish up with all the spokes sounding the same and the wheels true but they could be either too tight or too loose.
http://www.fasstco.com/html/spoke_tips.html
I always thought spokes after they had passed the initial bedding in process became loose because they were coming undone in the same way that any bolt on a bike comes undone due to vibration etc and needs to be periodically re-torqued/tightened.
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desmonc screwed with this post 10-10-2005 at 05:31 PM
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Old 10-10-2005, 09:42 AM   #21
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more clarification...tuning vs torquing

Quote:
Originally Posted by desmonc
I tighten the spokes using the Sploke Torque Wrench to first establish a baseline, then measure the lateral and radial distortion and true it from there, this saves a lot of time and guesswork. It is a really useful tool, without it you could finish up with all the spokes sounding the same and the wheels true but they could be either too tight or too loose.
http://www.fasstco.com/html/spoke_tips.html
like i wrote before,,,i found the tool handy to give me sense of what 4-5Nm FELT like and SOUNDED like,,,on lubed/cleaned new components,,,akin to people tuning their musical instruments,,,if you know the sound of 4-5 Nm on the spokes of your wheel (because 4-5Nm will sound different depending on spoke gauge/length and rim diameter),,,you will be consistently more accurate to depend on all the spokes sounding the same as the 4-5 Nm sounding reference point than to true your wheel to the click of the torque wrench,,,,

it ONLY measures the resistance of the nipple to the torque wrench!!!....get some corrosion/dirt/stuff like that...you'll get that 4-5Nm reading much sooner,,,you'll think it's ok,,,your rim will be true and the final test...do ALL the spokes sound the same???? ie doing the same amount of work???....the odds are against it happening

[I always thought spokes after they had passed the initial bedding in process became loose because they were coming undone in the same way that any bolt on a bike comes undone due to vibration etc and needs to be periodically re-torqued/tightened.[/QUOTE]


they come undone,,,because somewhere along the way,,incredible forces stretch the loosest links in the rim/nipple/spoke/hub confiquration,,,excel rims with little nipples are notorious for constantly needing to tighten spokes,,,all the new excels come with much bigger nipples,,, ie larger surface area /less sag,,,,certain spokes stretch/crack/fatique more readily than others,,,certain hubs and rims do the same,,,,,hence the advice/admonishment to constantly monitor the tune/tightness of your spokes

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Old 10-10-2005, 10:57 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woody's wheel works
they come undone,,,because somewhere along the way,,incredible forces stretch the loosest links in the rim/nipple/spoke/hub confiquration,,,excel rims with little nipples are notorious for constantly needing to tighten spokes,,,all the new excels come with much bigger nipples,,, ie larger surface area /less sag,,,,certain spokes stretch/crack/fatique more readily than others,,,certain hubs and rims do the same,,,,,hence the advice/admonishment to constantly monitor the tune/tightness of your spokes


KTM is replacing the front DID with an Excel rim in the Recall Campaign mentioned previously in this thread; how would I know if they used "little nipples"?

ps - I like little nipples so this logic goes against my usual sensibilities.
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Old 10-10-2005, 02:45 PM   #23
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Well thanks to Katoom_950, I found out that I am on the list for a new wheel too. Thanks, KTM, for letting me know about this

I went down to my local KTM Dealer, and they hadn't heard about this recall either. Apparently there's no mention of it in the "Dealership section" of the KTM website. Hmmm.

I gave a printout of the recall bulletin to the service manager, and he wrote me up for the new wheel, and said he'd get in touch with the Regional Dealer Rep to see what's what.

Thanks to Katoom_950 for getting the word out!

I'll let you know how it all shakes out.
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Old 10-10-2005, 04:57 PM   #24
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Did the same with my dealer last week. He looked up on the dealer net, found nothing.

So he got a copy of what I got from katoom950.

Think there's gonna be a run on these things?
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Old 10-10-2005, 05:53 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woody's wheel works
it ONLY measures the resistance of the nipple to the torque wrench!!!....get some corrosion/dirt/stuff like that...you'll get that 4-5Nm reading much sooner,,,you'll think it's ok,,,your rim will be true and the final test...do ALL the spokes sound the same???? ie doing the same amount of work???....the odds are against it happening
I agree which is why I clean and lube all the spoke nipples and wiggle them up and down a few times to free them before checking the torque, which I do every 1000 km so they never get a chance to get really gummed up.
The rear wheel seems to always finish up true after tightening with the torque wrench but the front always finishes up with lateral distortion in a couple of spots and some of the spokes need to be either tightened or loosened 1/4 to 1/2 to make it true, this should still put them in the 5Nm +or-1Nm range.
With the musical instrument analogy it is very easy to tune guitar strings too tight, all the strings will be in tune relative to each other but produce a higher note and will wear holes in your fingers quicker because of the additional force that needs to be applied.
For an expert like yourself listening to the spokes is easy but for an amateur this means tapping them with exactly the same amount of force in the same spot 36 times, not easy.
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Old 10-10-2005, 09:57 PM   #26
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big n lil nipples

Quote:
Originally Posted by meat popsicle


KTM is replacing the front DID with an Excel rim in the Recall Campaign mentioned previously in this thread; how would I know if they used "little nipples"?

ps - I like little nipples so this logic goes against my usual sensibilities.
all late model ktms come with the same sized nipples front an rear ,,bigger than the old excel nipples smaller than the ones on current excels and my SUPERLACE wheels/rims,,,for moderate riding they are fine

i like em ALL,,,and you have no worries mate,,,it's just your toomer that loves BIG NIPPLES
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Old 10-10-2005, 10:07 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desmonc
With the musical instrument analogy it is very easy to tune guitar strings too tight, all the strings will be in tune relative to each other but produce a higher note and will wear holes in your fingers quicker because of the additional force that needs to be applied.
For an expert like yourself listening to the spokes is easy but for an amateur this means tapping them with exactly the same amount of force in the same spot 36 times, not easy.
what i believe i said is you want to tune them to the sound of the spoke that you had an accurate torque wrench reading on,,,so thats like someone with a tuning flute /fork or that electric thinga mijigi and you tune that string to that vibration,,,if that's the ''4-5Nm vibration'' ,i can then check the other spokes to the vibration of the 'master tuned spoke'',,,do you follow my drift????

then they should all be in sync,,,and since ''things equal to same things are equal''..ie:the 4-5Nm vibration,,, you can be sure that if your wheel is running true at this point,,,that all your spokes are working fairly equally

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Old 10-11-2005, 12:51 AM   #28
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Bump.

Guy's, I will need your e-mail address in order to send the documents or alternatively, do you have an e-mail list for the LC4 Adventure owners Meat Popsicle?

Good luck folks

katoom_950
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Old 10-11-2005, 05:36 AM   #29
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e-mail addresses

Quote:
Originally Posted by katoom_950
Bump.

Guy's, I will need your e-mail address in order to send the documents or alternatively, do you have an e-mail list for the LC4 Adventure owners Meat Popsicle?

Good luck folks

katoom_950
here's mine,,,,,and thanks,,,woody@woodyswheelworks.com
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Old 10-11-2005, 05:53 AM   #30
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a new wheel or just a new rim???/

[QUOTE=LC4 Pilot]Well thanks to Katoom_950, I found out that I am on the list for a new wheel too. ,,,,,I went down to my local KTM Dealer, ,,,,
I gave a printout of the recall bulletin to the service manager, and he wrote me up for the new wheel, ,,,,,, QUOTE]

hi,,,just curious,,,,

a wheel is usually considered the complete assy rim/spokes/hub,,,,so are they swapping laced wheels or just the rim and who's doing the lacing????,,,methinks that should be on their dime

holler if any of ya need the rims swapped out,,,we get em in and out within a day or two,,faster if its urgent
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